I've had a lot of people tell my that combat maneuvers are a waste of points and i should stop armor at 8 cause theyd rather get an ewave off then get a 2 round stun instead of a 4 rounder...
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I got no dukes. reg
Also, I see lots of sorcerers running around these days in armor higher than double. I can think of six or seven higher level sorcerers that wear brigandine, and even one or two who possibly wear hauberk. Sure, the spell penalties may be horrendous, but at that age I figure mana would be plentiful. Personally, I've never taken any sorcerer past 8 ranks in armor use, but it's commonly done.
But then again... I might've misunderstood. Or they might just be really strong creatures.
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-Emtel
[This message has been edited by Emtel (edited 11-25-2001).] reg
And id really like to hear more peoples opinions on combat maneuvers cause thats something i may want to include later on in my characters career....
Moken reg
Although I don't really know much about the Rift in specific, I would think heavier armor would be beneficial if you're going to be hit on a regular basis.
Although, from the standpoint of stuns, if you're going to get stunned anyway, getting a cast of ewave off would be better.
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-Emtel reg
I was stunned for at least 2 minutes a few days ago.. and still survived. I had open imploded right before I was stunned, and my void made the few critters in the room run away instead of finishing me off. This was on plane 5, where Vaespilons cast sorcerer spells.. it cast 706 at me. Also.. If I were to retrain one of the old sorcerers I have, it would be getting 35 ranks in armor, and up to 40 ranks in CM. Having the added DS from CM, as well as the AvD of brig instead of some light leather armor, your going to be alot harder to hit, and when you are hit, hopefully the stun will be shorter, IF you are stunned. Alot of the time, the stuns I get from weapons, are really weak hits, and only stunned me cause my armor is so flimsy.
Depending on ewave in rift isnt something I would suggest, some things cant be ewaved.
Off the top of my head.. Vvrael witches and warlocks, lost souls... Not that a sorcerer should do anything but run from Vvrael in rift.. I don't know if Vaespilons can be ewaved.. I usually depend on stunning vaespilons, and forgeting lost souls to save my hide when I get swarmed. I need to remember to run instead of taking on armies.. Swarms kill me pretty easy. I really depend on running into a room, and FI'ing the critter real fast.
The most common ways for me to get stunned are from voids, spells like 409 and 706, and bolts. I get stunned less often from weapons I think, but if I get stunned from a weapon its cause something went wrong and I have a very small chance of living after being hit hard with a weapon. Right now on 5, I get feared by vaespilons a lil. It takes my DS down over 100 points.. dunno how but it does.
That allows lost souls to beat up on me really well, whether with bolts, or weapons.
Voids are more a random factor for me, I could go for a day getting hit by them and just have small lvl 1 wounds and like 10 HP, on my limbs or body.. to the next day, getting a huge death crit on my neck or head all the time. I think crit padded brig would help you survive the death crits from voids.
Also, I always get stunned if I am hit by a void.. I can't remember once being hit by a void and not being stunned for at least 2 rounds.. Ive never worn any armor over double leather.
Anyways back to your question.. I'd suggest brig instead of stopping at double, and CM can help your DS alot.. Especially if you missed some weapon or shield ranks. Depending on CM for DS will help later on if breakage ever comes.. You can use lower enchanted gear.
[This message has been edited by AestheticDeath (edited 11-25-2001).] reg
-Pirub reg
Once that first person compensates for the spells that the second person is able to put up - they start pulling away VERY quickly DS-wise.
Along with future growing pains changes that plan on making CM more important and getting away from age-based bonuses, CM will become more important for the person planning long term.
Even if you don't think CM is worth getting for the dodging maneuver attacks bonus - it is worth getting for the DS bonus it provides.
Only a person that isn't planning for the long term i.e. level 150/200/250+ AND future growing pains changes would say CM is worthless.
[This message has been edited by Magister (edited 11-26-2001).] reg
A level 140 sorcerer has 930 self cast DS without any Combat Maneuvers, I don't see any critters swinging near there. At the cost of 22/15 per training CM just costs too much for the little benefit it gives you. Yes over 200 levels, it will give an extra 100 DS boost in defensive but you also waste 4400/3000 TPs. This cuts more than 1/3rd of your total TPs over those levels.
Jaeden gets 23 DS from his CM training in defensive and 0 in offensive, not very impressive.
The bottom line is to double in CM as a bard, ranger, rogue, and warrior. Single as a cleric, and don’t train at all as a sorcerer, wizard or empath.
-Pirub reg
With breakage looming, and most casters being relegated to going with 4x/e-blades for equipment, DS is only going to become more and more of an issue for sorcerers.
Course, you can take the ostrich approach and bury your head in the sand and by the time that you actually need the higher DS, its too late for you to make any significant progress to get enough ranks.
In regard to Jaeden's progress, he'll have 80 additional DS in defensive at level 160. Thats certainly nothing to sneeze at. reg
I swear by CM as a wizard.
With 10x shield, weapon and 9x incredible crit padded armor all signs, max reflex and 6x db cloak. Oh ya, 70 ranks of CM. I still get hit in guarded. I still get raped by Witch bolts.
Wizards have the worst ds and td out of everyone. CM is a blessing for us.
edge reg
Well a Wizard might want to train in CM. Considering it’s only 15/8, and they do have the worst DS for casters it’s a viable option. They also have haste so they can swing in middle aged areas.
As to Jaeden having 80 bonus at 160, how do you figure that? He has 46 ranks at 99, so the maximum he could have at 160 is 107 ranks. This would give him a bonus of 53, not 80.
-Pirub reg
quote:
Originally posted by Pirub9:
As to Jaeden having 80 bonus at 160, how do you figure that? He has 46 ranks at 99, so the maximum he could have at 160 is 107 ranks. This would give him a bonus of 53, not 80.
I mis-spoke - meant to say 160 ranks, not level. He should be able to reach that in the low-mid level 200s. Granted, he'll probably have to wait 4-5 years until the current age cap gets raised to get there - but thats what long term planning is all about in the first place.
Point being, the older he becomes, the more DS he'll generate and that at a relatively young level of 99 - he isn't even 0.5x trained. He should be able to get to 0.6x-0.7x as he becomes older.
With older critters ambushing now - even 1 DS can mean the difference between living, or death.
[This message has been edited by Magister (edited 11-27-2001).] reg
No, not really.
-Pirub reg
just trying to take a look at all viable trainin paths for my sorc
Moken reg
quote:
Originally posted by Magister:
'With older critters ambushing now - even 1 DS can mean the difference between living, or death.'
quote:
Originally posted by Pirub9:
No, not really.
Here's an example where 1 DS can make a difference:
A claid adds a huge amount of critical ranks. Now, for it to add the crit ranks, it must reach the first rank. With a claid the threshold would be VERY clear. As follows:
You swing a claidhmore at a giant rat!
AS: +39 vs DS: -10 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +11 = +101
... and hit for 1 point of damage!
Thumped the giant rat's chest.
You swing a claidhmore at a giant rat!
AS: +39 vs DS: -10 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +12 = +102
... and hit for 1 point of damage!
Glancing blow to the giant rat's back.
That could have been better.
You swing a claidhmore at a giant rat!
AS: +39 vs DS: -10 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +13 = +103
... and hit for 2 points of damage!
Close shave!
The giant rat takes a quick step back.
You swing a claidhmore at a giant rat!
AS: +39 vs DS: -10 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +14 = +104
... and hit for 3 points of damage!
Light, bruising slash to the giant rat's left thigh.
You swing a claidhmore at a giant rat!
AS: +39 vs DS: -10 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +15 = +105
... and hit for 3 points of damage!
Weak slash across chest!
Slightly less painful than heartburn.
You swing a claidhmore at a giant rat!
AS: +39 vs DS: -10 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +16 = +106
... and hit for 4 points of damage!
Swing at the giant rat's eye catches an eyebrow instead!
You swing a claidhmore at a giant rat!
AS: +39 vs DS: -10 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +17 = +107
... and hit for 4 points of damage!
Light slash to the giant rat's abdomen!
Barely nicked.
You swing a claidhmore at a giant rat!
AS: +39 vs DS: -10 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +18 = +108
... and hit for 40 points of damage!
Wild upward slash removes the giant rat's face from its skull!
Interesting way to die.
You swing a claidhmore at a giant rat!
AS: +39 vs DS: -10 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +19 = +109
... and hit for 66 points of damage!
Slash to the giant rat's lower back!
Kidneys sliced and diced!
Death is slow and painful.
You swing a claidhmore at a giant rat!
AS: +39 vs DS: -10 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +20 = +110
... and hit for 31 points of damage!
Hard slash to the giant rat's side!
Left arm no longer available for use.
A giant rat screeches loudly and slumps to the ground while frantically licking its wounded left foreleg.
A giant rat screeches loudly while frantically licking its wounded left claw.
As shown, 1-4 damage is a rank 0 crit and 5 damage is a rank 1.
1 DS does make a difference. reg
It makes a difference.
[This message has been edited by Magister (edited 11-27-2001).] reg
Obviously your going to be crittings rats with 101 rolls, but in any type of armor you'll need roughly 120+ to get a head crit, not to mention that not all old creatures will have claids, i expect it be like shan warriors with varing types of weapons reg
Training should be along the lines of..
1x Shield
1x Edge
1x Perception
2x Spells
1x Scroll Reading
1x Magic Item use
2x Mana Share
2x Spell Aiming
1x Physical Training
You'd most likely have to cut out a number of things in the beginning, but as your stats grow and you get more TPs it shouldn't be that big of a problem. Around 25 you should be able to do all of that. I'd also get 35 ranks in Armor so you can use brig and 30 ranks in swimming/climbing.
-Pirub reg
quote:
Originally posted by Pirub9:
1 DS makes a difference, 1 TD makes a difference, 1 CS makes a difference, 1 AS makes a difference, 1 EXP point makes a difference.
You can argue everything makes a difference but in reality it doesn't.
1 DS makes a difference which is why you should try to maximize this aspect.
1 TD makes a difference - see above.
1 CS really doesn't because you have FI to fall back on (and for those few creatures that are immune to it - there are alternatives in the same age bracket).
1 AS really doesn't because most sorcerers don't swing in the older age brackets.
1 exp really doesn't unless it is in between levels that you are training.
Regardless....
Its not just 1 DS difference. With a dedicated CM trainer - it can be 50 DS difference (or more) at level 160. reg
1 AS makes a difference if you're swinging in rats and ants.
1 EXP makes a difference if it's from 0 to -1 exp till.
Do they make a big difference? No, but I never said they did.
-Pirub reg
Cumulative DS over the long term does make a big difference in whether you live or die. Thats why you don't see most persons advocating stopping at 40 ranks in weapon/shield nowadays.
The extra 50+ DS a sorcerer picks up from CM can keep you alive. A CS point here or there will only cost the person a little more mana for a missed cast - and is totally a non-issue if they rely on FI to hunt.
And if I were going to go the wizard route - I'd do what Alfador is doing, and 1x CM for life. reg
Like I said at 140, an extra 40 DS would hardly make a difference. Of course you wouldn't stop sword/shield, that's the stupidest thing you could do.
The reason not to stop in shield and sword is because you get 2 DS for 18/2 while CM to get 2 DS for 88/60. This is 70/58 more TPs to yield the same amount of DS.
-Pirub reg
To paraphrase Banthis before anyone else bothers - CM doesn't equal acrobatics. But it does help with certain maneuver attacks, something that no amount of sword or shield training can do.
R
reg
quote:
Originally posted by Pirub9:
Yea and saying 1 DS means something at 150 is really much better - long term planning.
I gave the example to demonstrate that 1 DS can be important. Since you obviously missed it, I'll post it, in part, again:
You swing a claidhmore at a giant rat!
AS: +39 vs DS: -10 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +17 = +107
... and hit for 4 points of damage!
Light slash to the giant rat's abdomen!
Barely nicked.
You swing a claidhmore at a giant rat!
AS: +39 vs DS: -10 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +18 = +108
... and hit for 40 points of damage!
Wild upward slash removes the giant rat's face from its skull!
Interesting way to die.
quote:
Originally posted by Pirub9:
Like I said at 140, an extra 40 DS would hardly make a difference.
I disagree. As growing pains changes continue to be put in, GM Ophion's multi-opponent combat proposal, critters that are now ambushing, overall profession downtweaks, etc, etc - the ability to withstand a critter's attack is only going to become more important. CM helps you do that. And, I consider 40 DS a significant advantage.
And, as the ages continue to get rolled out (even if it does take 5 years, or 10 for it to happen), the sorcerer that can muster the higher defense, does have an advantage (all other things being equal) in a combat scenario.
And as per the previous post by Bestatte, CM does help with some maneuver attacks.
As has been stated previously by others, the CS of a corpse ain't much. Stay alive first - then figure the rest out as best you can.
reg
Joe- next time you hunt, don't use 102, since 40 something DS doesn't matter, right?
-Zentalin reg
2) Shield + Sword 2DS - 18/2 TPs.
CM 2DS - 88/60 Tps.
3) 'CM does help with some maneuver attacks.'
*Note some, CM does not help from Rift to 160 so for long term i don't really see it as a factor - long term planning.
4) Jenovadeath(121) with 75 ranks in Sword and 75 in shield hunts the new EN expansion rather easily - DS doesn't mean much.
This is my last post on this subject, frankly it's getting repetitive and lame. I'm sure everyone already knows our opinions on this subject.
-Pirub reg
quote:
Originally posted by Pirub9:
1) Your example with rats doesn't fly. A sorcerer later on should be wearing FGB which would make 1 DS nothing - long term planning.
I always have in my examples "everything else being equal" from an equipment standpoint. If your sorcerer that doesn't train in CM, is wearing FGB, then the sorcerer that does train in CM is also wearing FGB. In which case, it would still matter, it would only be for a higher end roll.
**As an aside, long term - a sorcerer should be wearing full plate.
quote:
Originally posted by Pirub9:
2) Shield + Sword 2DS - 18/2 TPs.
CM 2DS - 88/60 Tps.
Again, all things equal. Same # of ranks in weapon/shield for both. The CM person has a higher DS.
quote:
Originally posted by Pirub9:
3)*Note some, CM does not help from Rift to 160 so for long term i don't really see it as a factor - long term planning.
Obviously, your point of view should be "The level 160 sorcerer guide" rather than long term planning. Eventually, the cap will be raised.
quote:
Originally posted by Pirub9:
4) Jenovadeath(121) with 75 ranks in Sword and 75 in shield hunts the new EN expansion rather easily - DS doesn't mean much.
Having great success I see - just saw this pop up:
* Jenovadeath just bit the dust!
And, so what? Its a new area. The Rift has been tweaked dozens of times since it first opened. I'm sure that area that just opened will be tweaked heavily. AND, what about the next hunting areas beyond level 160. All other things being equal, a person that can generate higher DS has the advantage in combat.
reg
If this is true then CM will do no good against ambushes since GPIII will make it such that ambushing defense acts like bolting defense. Basically sword defense and CM will not help.
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg
Name: Moken Marlefoxx Race: Dark Elf Profession: Sorcerer (shown as: Sorcerer)
Gender: Male Age: 42 Expr: 226009 Level: 12
Currently Stat Bonus
Constitution (CO): 68 .... 4
Dexterity (DE): 54 .... 12
Discipline (DI): 59 .... -6
Logic (LO): 77 .... 13
Intelligence (IN): 61 .... 10
Strength (ST): 81 .... 15
Reflexes (RE): 64 .... 12
Charisma (CH): 81 .... 10
Wisdom (WI): 64 .... 12
Aura (AU): 81 .... 25
Mana: 24 Silver: 533
>Moken (at level 12), your skill bonuses and ranks are:
Skill Bonus Rank
-------------------------------------------------------------
Armor Use : 5 [1]
Shield Use : 62 [13]
Edged Weapons : 62 [13]
Perception : 62 [13]
Mana Sharing : 62 [13]
Spell Aiming : 108 [26]
Physical Training : 58 [12]
Physical Training Points : 13
Mental Training Points : 1
I've decided to finish phys and get double, at 60 or so pick up brig, i decided against cms in the end and i gonna put it towards tripling i think, not to mention ill pick up the basics later on mid twenties or like swim climb. MIU and Scroll 1x from 20 etc. Not to put anyones opinion down but in fgb 40 ds just wont make much diff in my opinion... reg
As far as the CM/DS issue is concerned - let me know if a 260 end roll versus 300 end roll matters when you over level 100.
Jeddart-axes hit pretty hard in the Rift.
(I just arbitrarily picked the #'s out of the air - could just as easily be 160 vs. 200, or 340 vs. 380) reg
-Pirub reg
quote:
Originally posted by Pirub9:
The maximum swing of critters in rift is 660's so those jeddart axes won't do anything.
The problem is with the change to 417 Elemental Dispel - lost souls are just as likely to knock down your 150 Wall of Force as any other spell you got up.
Add in the n'ecares ability to trip, plus the winds that randomly knock off your 102 Spirit Barrier - and thats a bad situation to be in.
You can very quickly be down quite a bit of DS in a matter of seconds.
quote:
Originally posted by Pirub9:
Dark-Elven is a viable choice but I would probably gone giant or dwarf.
Agreed. Long term - giant or dwarf is the way to go. reg
Name: Moken Marlefoxx Race: Dark Elf Profession: Sorcerer (not shown)
Gender: Male Age: 54 Expr: 701785 Level: 24
Currently Stat Bonus
Constitution (CO): 70 .... 5
Dexterity (DE): 63 .... 16
Discipline (DI): 65 .... -3
Logic (LO): 79 .... 14
Intelligence (IN): 67 .... 13
Strength (ST): 83 .... 16
Reflexes (RE): 68 .... 14
Charisma (CH): 83 .... 11
Wisdom (WI): 70 .... 15
Aura (AU): 87 .... 28
Mana: 55 Silver: 0
Moken (at level 24), your skill bonuses and ranks are:
Skill Bonus Rank
-------------------------------------------------------------
Armor Use : 30 [6]
Shield Use : 105 [25]
Edged Weapons : 105 [25]
Perception : 105 [25]
Scroll Reading : 20 [4]
Magic Item Use : 20 [4]
Mana Sharing : 108 [26]
Spell Aiming : 150 [50]
Physical Training : 90 [20]
First Aid : 20 [4]
Physical Training Points : 5
Your spell lists:
Minor Elemental...23
Minor Spirit......7
Sorcerer Circle...20
Use SPELL ALL to view detailed list of spells.
at 20 with more tps available i started singling in FA for 705 MIU and scroll reading for new stuff, and i started to double in mana share, i plan on finishing physical and 8 ranks of double, getting some climbing and swimming, start armor up again at 41 for brig by 68 and i gonna try to get about 20 cms by 120 or triple in spells havent decided
and btw the lost ranger mana calculater is a little off... occassionaly miscalculates my mana but still real acurate, it said i should have had 56 this trainin heh
Moken
[This message has been edited by Moken (edited 02-16-2002).] reg
Round the number as normal (.5+ goes up)
reg
quote:
I gave the example to demonstrate that 1 DS can be important. Since you obviously missed it, I'll post it, in part, again:
I have a question because I'm not sure of the answer. Where you hit is a random factor? Yes or No?
If Yes... Wouldn't those examples mean basically nothing unless you hit the same area? In one example I saw a head crit and in another I saw just a normal hit.
Isn't is coded in someway or another that if you hit certain parts you'll do more damage/crit more? Ex. Head crit vs Leg crit in the examples that he had. That would lead me to believe that 1 DS doesn't really mean a thing and that the extra +1 to the endroll will not matter unless it falls into the already preassigned damage catagories? Ie.. 100-110, 111-120.. etc.
I don't know really so if someone else could fill me in I'd appreciate it. reg
Put someone in incredible crit padded plate - and all it means is that it takes a much higher end roll to crit'em.
Its a matter of when the crit ranking from the hit comes into play. Lets assume (using arbitrary numbers) for the above example, it takes a 1000 end roll to crit them - whereas a 999 end roll would not.
And, the issue for this discussion is far greater than simply 1 DS. Its enough to make the difference between getting hit, and not getting hit at all. reg
Constitution (CO): 95 .... 37
Dexterity (DE): 100 .... 25
Discipline (DI): 100 .... 35
Logic (LO): 97 .... 28
Intelligence (IN): 89 .... 19
Strength (ST): 97 .... 33
Reflexes (RE): 99 .... 19
Charisma (CH): 100 .... 15
Wisdom (WI): 100 .... 25
Aura (AU): 100 .... 15
stats of a GOD.
as to CM, you should obviously train in it to some extent. Armor, on the other hand, can be expanded upon much more than CM with the aid of expensive armors. unfortunately 100 million coins can't buy you extra skills.
Jaeden reg
R
reg
Drop your ego, and come back when you have something useful to say. reg
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-Emtel Draghan, Sylvankind Rogue reg
..... Remembers killing Zentalin on the boulder as a 24th cleric... You were casting walls but I guess you hadn't attained your "GOD" status yet.
Rymn was the name, if that helps you remember any. 
reg
quote:
Originally posted by Zentalin:
all idiots must stfu. now, post stats that are godly and worth posting, for a change. Yes, that is my character Zentalin and obviously a god. I never claimed he was a Sorcerer.
Zentalin, scroll WAY up to the top of this folder, and you'll see...
OMG it's the Sorcerer folder! Now how the heck did THAT happen!?
If you don't wanna post about sorcerous things, don't post in this folder. Hmmm what was your expression? stfu I think it was..
reg
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I got no dukes. reg
Godly? I could max all stats at 114 with the new 620 system. You got the benifit of the old system and still need to wait till what, 140?
'lood reg
Andiago. reg
Sonic reg