The Players Corner Archive

Category Discussions with Simutronics (5)
Topic Suggestions, Comments and Concerns (2)
Message Malok and the Age Cap (55727)
By JKARLEN665@PLAY.NET
On May 22, 2001 at 10:48

This will be my only public response on this matter. I will not be
responding further.
So, those of you looking to make snide remarks, coarse comments, to
totally take things out of context, dissect it and misinterpret it -
heres your opportunity.

To the rest of you, Id appreciate the courtesy of at least reading
what Im writing from my perspective.

1. WHY PUT IN A CAP?
Statement of "Fact"?:
A. Game mechanics break down at the older ages.
B. People are able to ruin Special Events.
C. People are able to pick on others.

In response:
A. Game mechanics break down long before the current age caps.
B. A level 20 person is godlike compared to a level 5 person. So,
if an event is setup for level 5 people - whether a person is 20,
200, or 2000 - it doesnt make a difference.
Also, just because you are older, doesnt mean you are un-killable.
I was killed by a critter nearly 200 trainings younger than I am
recently. Those that are taking the position of "they shouldnt be
able to cast/attack", should also take the position that "they
should not be able to BE attacked in the first place".
C. Attacking other players without consent is not allowed. I argue
that those that are older are those that have NOT abused others as a
general rule - and thus, that is why they were able to get older in
the first place without getting banned. A level 20 person can bully
a level 5 person and have much less to lose.

Thus, capping at level 143, 160 - or even level 20 is lacking in its
intent.

2. ROLEPLAYING?
Statement of "Fact"?:
A. This will "make" people roleplay - or they will leave.
B. The older people are only interested in "winning the game".

In response:
A. I seriously doubt that this will have any positive impact
whatsoever. The roleplaying aspects will not have changed. They
are still the persons they once were - whether they are level 1,
200, or 2,000 - I see no change. All that has really happened is
youve given people a goal to shoot for to "win the game". I
seriously doubt a significant portion of the older persons
will "leave" - theyve stuck it out this long, why leave?
B. To the contrary, Gemstone NOT having the ability to "win the
game" was a primary attraction to my coming to the lands in the
first place. All too often in other games Ive played, youd have
tons of godlike people running around that were capped out - helping
their other personas, etc. (which is most likely going to become an
issue even more so for Gemstone now).

3. ITS IMPACT
Statement of "Fact"?:
A. This will restore balance to the lands.
B. You will again be able to train once the cap is moved up to your
age bracket - so, you arent being penalized.

In response:
A. Game mechanics breakdown long before the age cap of 143, and
160. And, a level 20 person is still far more powerful than a level
5 person. I see no merit in this position. There is no balance as
long as people are older than others.
B. This is a bogus statement. Simutronics will always continue to
appeal to the bulk of its market in new areas/designs - its only
good business to do so. Creating new areas for a minority group of
people will always take a back seat to most any other project that
needs their attention.
Its taken 3 years to go from level 138 to level 160. An increase of
22 levels every 3 years means, in another 10-15 years I can train
again.

Now, this raises a very critical issue - with NEW changes going in
regularly (spell aiming changes for sorcerers, GM Ophions multi-
opponent plans, the numerous and extensive NEW requirements that GM
Romulus has planned for sorcerers so they can become "specialized" i
in a given area of sorcery [ensorceller, animate dead, demons, etc,
etc]) - HOW are you suppose to adapt to NEW changes that are put in,
if you arent able to train for them in the first place???

The newer persons coming up through the ranks will have the time and
ability to adjust to the NEW changes that havent even been thought
of yet - and the older persons will still be stuck in limbo waiting
for areas to be created, if ever. Even full reallocation is
insufficient (and unlikely). The best that you could do for
reallocation is train your persona to the best of your ability for
TODAY. As soon as NEW changes come back in - you are back to being
painted in a corner again. You are capped out - and unable to adapt
to those new changes.

Whos to say that Trade, or even pick pockets wont become of utmost
importance for NEW requirements for sorcerers?

One of the primary factors for me getting more trainings in the
first place was to try and catch up for some of the new requirements
being put in. For example, I now have 4 ranks in Multi-opponent
since GM Ophion announced his new plans. And I might add, I still
need another 56 trainings until Im fully singled (1x) in spell aim
from the sorcerer changes when they occurred.

4. PICKING
Statement of "Fact"?:
A. You trained in picking to advance in trainings - so you
shouldnt get those training points back cause you had blinders on
thinking this was going to be going on forever.
B. You still can pick - you just wont learn from it. You get
satisfaction from a job well done.

In response:
A. I find this position to be absurd. Arguing this position, I
could say "training in Weapon/Shield is planning for getting
additional trainings down the road - so you shouldnt do that".
Planning for later advancement IS what training is about in the
first place.
How many people do you know that intentionally check in to the
character manager - and train in NO skills whatsoever, and get their
training?
I see no reason why anyone should be penalized for planning ahead
for their character - this includes training in picking, training in
weapon/shield, or anything else.
B. Again, arguing this position - you could say, "your training in
weapon/shield/spells is now effective only for rats - and you still
can hunt rats your whole time in the lands no matter how old you
become - you just wont learn from it".
I imagine most of the persons that are for this position, would be
the first ones up in arms if their level 25 persons training in
weapon/shield/spells just automatically became effective ONLY for
rats and no other creatures. After all, you get satisfaction from
slaying that rat now dont you?
You trained in those skills for LATER use. You planned for future
use of those skills. Same goes with picking. There is no difference.

Picking for older persons has numerous problems associated with it.
Persons that automatically take a disliking to you in the first
place simply because you are older - and thus insulting you, picking
fights to see what you cast at (or to see if they can kill you),
harassing you, etc, etc - simply because you are there is not very
enjoyable.

Sure, you can report, stunem, or leave the area - but how much fun
is it to "report - Im 200 trainings older than this person, can you
help me?", or run the risk of "you are abusing your powers by
attacking others that arent a threat to you - you should let them
stand there and insult you over and over and over and over and
over", or giving the younger person the thrill of running you out of
the area.

Also, picking is not a cost effective means of participating in the
lands. Every day I pick, I usually lose money from the random
snapping of picks. There are those of you that will recall that I
used to say "Open for anything - dont care where from, dont care
how many - just passem to me". After the picking changes, and
picks being jacked from 18k for the best pick, to 125k for the best
one - and burning 1 million silvers in broken picks the FIRST day of
the most recent changes, I went to "Open locksmith for pookas on
down". (Contrary to the other persons opinions that dont know me,
saying that I was trying to maximize learning.)

5. COMPENSATION?
Statement of "Fact"?:
A. Being old in the first place is your compensation - there should
be none.
B. You get a new title that no one else can have.
C. There is potential additional compensation to persuade you to
drop your levels to the new cap.

In response:
A. Great - assuming expansion takes place as quickly from level 138
(vaesps in the Rift) - level 160 (in elven nations), I get to wait
10-15 years until I can try and compensate for the NEW changes that
have already been put in. Not counting the other NEW things that
will have come in during that time.
What this really means is - by the time the lands are up to your
age - you will be a horribly trained person in comparison to anyone
else since you will not have been able to adapt to the NEW changes.
B. I most likely will never use the new title. Im still "Lord
Malok, Sorcerer". I have never used the new profession titles that
sorcerers have been given. Ive built my reputation as who I
currently am - giving me a new title saying "I won the game" is not
something that would even really interest me in the first place. My
intent was to never "win". That was one of the main reasons why I
came to Gemstone in the first place - no one could "win".
C. Realistically - I dont think there is anything that could be
reasonably offered to drop in levels. I got them the hard way and
would be hard pressed to give them up.
Full Reallocation is lacking as outlined above because of NEW
changes/requirements constantly being put in. The best you could
do, is train perfectly for TODAYs standards - which is lacking long
term, if you are unable to train or adapt further.

And even with that - why would you re-do your old persona that you
have invested 100% of your efforts (since you have never had another
character since your current one)? It would be much easier to
simply roll up a new person, and have your older person baby-sit the
younger (which is something that up until this point in time, I have
been steadfastly against).

Even if you were given spells/abilities from other spell circles -
again, most of that can be accomplished simply by purchasing various
items and trinkets that exist in the lands. All you have to do is
treasure hunt, and pay for them. And Bam, you got those abilities -
plus your trainings.

The giving money back idea has some potential - Id love to recover
the thousands of dollars I spent back when it was hourly, but again
not realistic - nor practical.

To those that have taken to the time to actually READ this, I
appreciate it. To those gloating, and now salivating at this
opportunity to insult, and slam me - this is your opportunity.

With a post of this length, Im sure you have LOTS of opportunities
to misinterpret things, and to take them out of context and
intent. Enjoy.

As Melissa has requested, I will refrain from final judgment on this
issue until Ive had an opportunity to discuss with her further but
with NEW changes being put in regularly, I simply dont see how
Malok can be viable when/if the age cap is ever raised to his age
range.

Malok
Giant Sorcerer

---------------------------------------

-John

------------------
IM: XoSPrEEoX
EMail: DJSphinx@eternalbeats.net reg

I think the main reason it has taken so long to get level 133 creatures around is because of the immense difficulty that had to be put there. They had to go self cast, give them heavy crit weighted weapons, make voids that crit you alot, and give the creatures TONS of spells that you have to burn mana on dispelling. I have hunted in the rift and seen lots of people struggle with it.

But lets just assume then that they didn't put a level cap on. And it is going to take 10 years before a creature maloks age would come along.

At the rate of just 2 trainings a month for 10 years would mean Malok would be 450 trainings old. And how did he get there? Picking boxes. So I don't see what they are complaining about. Unless they love to pick boxes. By the time Simu got around to making new high level places, the pure hunters could move there, but all the old old people like Malok, Suvar, and Angellisa would be in the 300-400 range, which is out of the range of the creatures Mellissa said they would make.

Personally Malok can be upset all he wants. I think this change is a overall good thing for most everyone. I firmly believe in "the good for the greater number".

Buckwheet reg

Category Discussions with Simutronics (5)
Topic Suggestions, Comments and Concerns (2)
Message Jadall's two cents,,,,for those of you who care to read (56011)
By LADYJAY@PLAY.NET
On May 22, 2001 at 21:58

I've counted to ten, read all the posts, and done some serious thinking.

I dont like the idea of the cap, I'll get that out of the way right off the bat. But maybe not for the reason's many of you think.

First off, I've been a premium member since it went to the web, I pay my $30 a month and finally GS is giving us something back for all those years we have been premium. Now how you feel you train your personal characters are up to each of us, you choose to RP and level every 10 months, your choice, you choose to RP and level in a week, your choice, or you just may have more time than others. But now, we are going to have to pay $30 a month to keep our status, and not be able to learn any experience at all. I'm not sure I can justify that. This doesnt only apply to the 9 or 10 of us, but to the ones hit with the first cap, pay all summer long and not get anything from it. I'm sure there's folks going to say we'll it's RPing, or go to $10 a month. Just stating my personal feelings on the cost is all.

Secondly, you all seem to think this affects very few of us, wrong, think of the people that are going to be in the first cap.

As for the new titles go, I think it's silly and personally would not use them, and I hope it's not mandatory.

As for a compensation for being set back 100 levels, AINT no way, I worked for this, I paid for it. Personally dont care what you think of me or my character, I earned it.

Now reading some of these posts today, somethings that were said were not needed, we handful of players didnt 'break' this game, that's a GS problame, not ours. I would also like to see the 'bashing' of these 'older players' stopped on here, it's not been put here to flame them.

And for all of you that have private thought to me, whispered, emailed and IMd about 'have the gods spoke with you yet', the answer is still no, and I was told we wouldnt be till after the first cap was in place.

Well, there's my two cents. Now excuse me while I go back to hunting.

------------------
~Nindy
"Don't take this the wrong way." reg

Third time in an hour...

-John

------------------
AIM: XoSPrEEoX
EMail: DJSphinx@eternalbeats.net
---------------------
www.eternalbeats.net
www.eraver.net reg

"Don't worry you old timers, we still want you to have FUN which is why we're implementing a retirement home for you, the Artisan's Guild! Here you will advance in new skills that will be pointless for your everyday adventures of sitting around doing nothing. Upon completing all the tasks and skills, there will still be the oppurtunity for you to roam freely around the lands. Congratulations <grumbles and shakes your hand>. You win!!"

Fisdan reg

If so welcome aboard!! Glad to have you.

If not still glad to have you!!

I think the age cap could have been implimented differently. How about for starters the older you get the less experience you get from healing, raising, make picking a rogue only skill to which you can learn from, and include age into the amount you learn from those locks.

Clearly the "You Win" situation will go the way of the ghost, but people keep saying GS breaks at 20. Well I don't see a reason to make them work and work and work to have to try and make it not break after 200 then Suvar or Malok or someone trains to 300 then the GM's have to evalute where the game "breaks" again. I think this might actually be the first serious step is saying ok. We are going to set a number 143 to start and make sure the game doesn't break up to 143. Then we will gradually raise that cap and release new creatures only is we are certain the game will not break as bad as it does now.

I could be hoping for too much. But I am 100 trains away from the current cap, by the time the cap gets raised to 160 I will be 70 trains away. So I have 1.5 years or so of living under the cap. I might reconsider after the cap gets raised again, but at some point you have to say enough silver being introduced to the lands, enough experience etc.

There has to be some sort of limit to work with otherwise at some point the game will begin to become broken and just get worse and worse.

Buckwheet reg

Sorcerer's learn Implosion, arguably the most destructive and profession-defining spell available, at level 20. By Malok's example, this powerful, peak of sorcerous magical power is achieved when a character has mastered not even 10% of their profession.

Rogues can maximize the ambush mechanics before level 50. By doing so, they have achieved complete mastery of a skill before they have accomplished 20% of a 300 level game.

Clerics can raise the dead at level 12, with greater ease at level 18 and 50. If this were just a 200 level game, this sacred, profession-defining power exclusive to clerics can be performed by characters who have been through 6% of the learning curve.

There are other mechanics that are tied to levels, roundtime for eating herbs and stat growth, for example, which were never designed with level 150+ characters in mind.

And the question lingers, "Why not just fix all of these things?" By capping the levels, every single problem I've listed (as well as others) have been effectively frozen, growing no worse if not any better. What's more is that there is no pressing reason to allow greater level advancement. While it has taken years of work to achieve levels 160+, the same type of devotion can be poured into a new character, well within the intended range of levels, providing just as much of not more quality entertainment. And if this idea is distasteful to you because of your friends or other roleplaying, you are completely free to continue to roleplay your level 160+ character.

The only change is that you'll no longer be gaining levels. You won't be found slaughtering countless numbers of level 25 creatures in order to find boxes, which you pick for experience. I certainly don't count this as detrimental to the adventurous environment in Elanthia.

What's more is the astoundingly ludicrous notion that by reducing the levels of the 9 highest level characters, Simutronics is doing the game as a whole a disservice. Precisely what benefit are these glorius martyrs providng for the populace?

Though they are not all guilty of these acts, as a group they have been:
* plundering the loot of lower level hunting areas
* raping characters of their silvers and gems through skewed stealing mechanics
* casting spells for characters/players who are unable to fend of roltons by themselves
* offer to pick all your boxes, sorry rogues who trained diligently in locksmithing, you're obsolete
* heal all your wounds as quickly as possible, sorry young empaths, scrape up some fun and experience elsewhere
* worst of all, use their skills to abuse younger characters

And I repeat that not all of the level 160+ characters are guilty of one or more of these. I have personal experience dealing with 3 of the 9 level 160+ characters and they all fit into the list somewhere.

And all that said and done, what defense is left for an uncapped game? Because the nine of you enjoy getting levels? Unfortunately, the other 5,000+ of us enjoy playing our characters in a world filled with danger, adventure, and excitement, and it seems that you've been outvoted. These 9 characters' abilities have placed them above the danger presented in Elanthia, that in itself is a problem. (Malok was once killed by a creature 200 levels younger than him, yipee, I can be killed 20 times a day by a creature 60 levels younger than me. Poor Malok, eh?)

But you're perfectly free to go about your roleplay as you always have in this roleplaying game. You'll be perfectly free to contribute to the roleplaying environment of Elanthia and to interact with other characters. Somehow I expect that few, if any of you will remain to be such a positive influence on the game. I do expect you to take your toys and go home.

Bye. reg

Some fights you simply will not win. Life's rough. reg

What solves it is good programming and setting up a consistent system. A consistent system is age independant. Gemstone lacks that, when it was first made it was horribly programmed and its system is pathetic even today. The age of Gemstone doesn't even work as an excuse, there were excellent programmers in the 60s and GS could be fixed today by implementing a skill based consistent system rather than a level based one. But instead what the GMs decide is to essentially take away something from older characters because they failed to provide the game with a balanced and well made system.

This isn't fair not to the ones who are over 150 today, nor is it fair to those who wish to make it that far. If the opinions for the age cap outnumber the opinions against it, just remember there are 1000s more people under 100 trainings than there are over 100 trainings.

And welcome to the Player's Corner. It's nice to see some good well thought out points being made.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 05-25-2001).] reg