The Players Corner Archive

I just wanted to post this so everyone could

TAKE FULL ADVANTAGE

of this generous offer that Melissa has so selflessly put out there

I have half a mind to order up twenty tickets myself

Gosh, how did I ever get this thing organized without her help in the years past...

Poor Lissa, having to use Simu as a crutch.

By SIMU-MELISSA from PLAY.NET
On Feb 10, 2002 at 12:24
Subject VegasCon Thanks and Fee (1931)
<< >>

I wanted to take a few moments and thank the organizers of VegasCon for all the work they do. I know first hand how difficult it is to schedule, reserve, budget and plan a large gathering. It's very time consuming and frustrating. I know first hand how impossible it is to make everyone happy. It's very time consuming and frustrating. I know first hand how irritating it is to try and get everyone to agree on one course of action. It's very time consuming and frustrating. <grin>

Additionally, the poor organizers of the con write countless email trying to shake me up and get the information and/or resources they need from Simu and the game. I'm not always as quick to respond as I should be, yet the organizers, every one, has always been patient and happy in thier dealings with me.

On top of everything else, these good souls have made a monetary commitment. In order to run a smooth gathering, money is required. Now that money could come out of thier pocket (which would be horrible!) or they could ask a minimum fee for entry to make sure they can pay the deposits and the reservation fees. $35 is not much to ask.

I've heard people say at SimuCon "Well, if I'm not going to take advantage of the services, then I shouldn't have to pay." But what these people don't realize is that they *ARE* taking advantage of the services. Without these people organizing the event, no one would be there to socialize with outide of the designated private areas. So I guess if you plan to go to SimuCon or VegasCon and not talk to any of the GS3 people there, then you're right. But I doubt that's the case.

Some people, I assume, are hard up for cash and can't afford the $35 registration fee. If that's the case, please email me. *** I WILL PAY YOUR REGISTRATION FEE OUT OF MY OWN POCKET *** I can't pay your transportation fee, and I won't pay for your drinks, but I'll get you in the door if you get there.

VegasCon wouldn't exist without the people to organize it. We don't need to punish them for their hard work by sticking them with a bill, while we reap the benefits of all of their efforts.

- Melissa (Probably sticking her nose in where it doesn't belong.)
reg

- Pudgee reg

reg

Ashemu's player reg

I guess life just doesn't agree with some people. Unreal.

Lissa reg

I DO know, that regardless of Rhain's bitterness and the flame-war on the official boards surrounding the VegasCon she hosted, that Simu showed very very bad form in not supporting her efforts and making it sound like Rhain was the bad guy throughout that ordeal.

I also think Melissa needs to take a closer look (and listen) to the people who pay to play Simutronics games. They're begging to be heard, and it seems to be falling on deaf ears.

That is what I'm responding to. Forget the fee payment for VegasCon. Spend more time on listening to your customers and less time worrying about a gathering.

R
reg

I don't know if you consider me a friend or not, or if you value my opinion at all, but your post no matter how it was written, is in poor taste.

Still your friend,

Kodokai reg

I wasn't going to bother posting again, but it bothers me that I tried to hide my feelings behind a wall of sarchasm - frankly, that's just not me.

Ginger, your post was hurtful, and I can't get past how stunned and hurt I was that you would so easily, and so completely sacrifice a friend to further your crusade.

You KNOW how much work, planning, blood, sweat and tears goes into planning something as large as Vegascon. You, of all people, can appreciate the thankless feeling that you get, and yet the sheer joy of planning the events, and laying the groundwork for people to enjoy themselves and have fun. This isn't my forte', and I don't claim it to be, but I would have thought that you - of all people - would at least appreciate the work going into this.

I felt so badly the last couple of years when I learned how you would put so much cash out of your own pocket to help fund "OUR" good time. I can't imagine how exasperating it must have been for you to take the financial hit, when noone stepped up to the plate and help. I couldn't do it. Even if I wanted to, especially in today's economy, I just couldn't afford to do it.

Noone should have to do it.

I can see where reading Melissa’s post, displayed by itself the way it was posted here, could be taken so out of context. Without benefit of the prior hundreds of posts as backdrop to set the tone, it is easy to see where Roberta might have drawn the conclusion that she did – however wrong it may be.

On the other hand, however noble the intended questioning of priorities might have been – the high ground was lost when you suggest that people knowingly exploit Melissa’s generosity by sending false requests for funding – “by having them e-mail Melissa to get the fee paid for (even if they have no intention of going).”

Are you really so malicious? Are you truly THAT bitter that you would not only laugh at, but encourage the personal attack on a person the way that you so blatantly suggest for people to exploit Melissa's kindness?

How sad that in your world, there is room for so much animosity and malice.

Lissa

[This message has been edited by Lissa (edited 02-12-2002).] reg

Between Simucon and Vegascon. I would personally rather go to Vegas con.

Mainly because it sounded like people go there with the idea to have more fun then at Simucon. Not to mention I know of several people who only go to Simucon to yell and scream about "their" game.

Its sad to see this amount of controversy surround this event.

Granted I have never been able to go to Vegascon, but now I don't know if I would want to.

Buckwheet reg

quote:

---

Originally posted by Buckwheet:

Its sad to see this amount of controversy surround this event.

Granted I have never been able to go to Vegascon, but now I don't know if I would want to.

Buckwheet

---

Why? The only controversy here is Ginger's sniping. There is no controversy. VegasCon is a blast, and will be this year as usual! It's definately a lot more laid back and casual than SimuCon, altough I highly recommend both -- SimuCon for the fun. fellowship, and great game info; Vegascon for the drinking, gambling, general mayhem, and overall fun with new and old GS pals.

Don't let the petty bitterness exhibited in this thread get throw you. SimuCon may be Simu's show, but VegasCon is first and formost a PLAYERS event. It's great that Simu helps out with getting the word out, but for the most part they have little to nothing to do with it.

And Ginger .. what's up? Yeah .. there were issues at last year's VegasCon, but that wasn't any of our fault. Why take it out on Lissa? We just wanna have a good time.

And we will!

-Prestius reg

INCOMING!! reg

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lissa:

On the other hand, however noble the intended questioning of priorities might have been – the high ground was lost when you suggest that people knowingly exploit Melissa’s generosity by sending false requests for funding – “by having them e-mail Melissa to get the fee paid for (even if they have no intention of going).”

Are you really so malicious? Are you truly THAT bitter that you would not only laugh at, but encourage the personal attack on a person the way that you so blatantly suggest for people to exploit Melissa's kindness?

How sad that in your world, there is room for so much animosity and malice.

Lissa

---

Umm, actually, no. I don't know anyone who lives in Vegas besides Rhaindrop, and I don't know anyone planning on going to Vegas that week. I have no bitterness about Simutronics, in any way, shape, or form, and still include some of its customers and staff as online pals.

I do, however, think Simu should stop expending all this energy to promote a non-Simu gathering, and place it in game improvements where it belongs. Also, I take *NO* sides involving past issues between Rhain and Melissa, because I think they both had valid points and that they both made mistakes equally. I do, however, see Ginger's side of this particular issue, that Melissa made such a stink about Ginger's coordination of her VegasCon, where now she's not only supporting someone else's efforts to do the same thing, but offering to pay people to go. I certainly can see how Ginger would feel insulted by that public announcement.

It's called empathizing. It is not called being bitter, "in my world."

R

[This message has been edited by Desharei (edited 02-12-2002).] reg

How bizzare...

Were you guys just *waiting* for me to say something? I've been PRETTY DAMN GOOD about not saying a word of opinion on Lissa/Dagor's organizational abilities, any ideas being tossed around on what events are taking place, the idea of charging for an event that I bent over backwards to make sure no one had to pay for anything they didn't want to do and that everyone could go with that in mind, I haven't commented on this year's festivities AT ALL. The only thing I've brought up on these boards was the past and even then it was done in emails to anyone who gave a crap. And I was completely fair.

I had even contemplated going to ENJOY the celebration this year, sucking it up and walking in and appreciating the hard work it TAKES to organize this. I cannot begin to imagine the sacrafices made to bring this event with a 'change of management' so to speak. You all must have taken a lotta grief.

The only person I've been voicing my personal opinions on the goings on here is my poor husband. Who, rightfully so, is still fuming over the way things went down last year. I even told him yesterday that I'd love to be the one to rise above and just put it all aside for the sake of seeing my friends having a good time.

Then I got that post in an email. It made me laugh, we never got an offer like that from Simutronics, we never had to take advantage of the pockets because it was VERY clearly stated that this wasn't a mini-Simucon, and I didn't want to be controlled by them. But in the end it didn't seem to matter what *I* wanted. It's about what they want.

I think that everyone SHOULD take advantage of Melissa's offer. Why pay if she's willing to pay your way?????

That's the point I was putting in the spotlight. Mentioning Lissa using Simutronics as a crutch has nothing to do with how I feel about her personally, I could have even said "The VegasCon organizing team using Simutronics as a crutch"...

Because you are...

And that's a fact.

And I'm not being a sniper, and I'm not doing this to make myself feel better, I'm just making a point about a post that was emailed to me. I'm sorry if you are all taking this as a personal attack. But it doesn't surprise me at all.

p.s. Lissa you made it very clear to me ages ago that you don't consider me a friend, so I'm not exactly sure what you meant by sacrificing someone to 'further my cause'...

I made a simple post, with a simple introduction and a word for word post by Melissa.

reg

>SimuCon may be Simu's show, but VegasCon is first and formost a PLAYERS event. P-boy

Yeah, but each year, things creep closer to this being a mini-Simucon or being in the hands of Simutronics. Remember last year? They were thinking of taking over the show after what happened with Ginger. At least this time, it seems as if everything is still in the hands of the players, but of course, some organizers do somewhat work for Simu, and then having Melissa help out with some funds, that doesn't look nice either. Oh yeah, and let's not forget that this year we're having seminars too! -boo hisses-

I don't know about you, but this sure doesn't feel like any of the past Vegascons. This *is* now Simucon whether or not you want to believe it. I know the new people to Vegascon are going to flock to the seminars like old Dragonrealms players only caring about knowing/talking about game mechanics like some Trekkie. At least I know the veterans of Vegascon are still going to go out gambling, to strip clubs, and basically cause lots of trouble. Now *that's* Vegascon! -grins-

- Pudgee

PS - P-boy, this time, overdose on OJ a few days before leaving for Vegas. ;) reg

So I want to make a few points and I would like for everyone to accept that what I am saying is the truth, since I have no reason to lie about anything or even try to make something appear to be something it isn't. I'm not even getting to go to Vegas this year, even though I have already put in hours and hours of personal time on the team originally.

First of all Simu's involvement. Their involvment is EXACTLY what it was last year. Ginger originally asked Simu a couple years ago if they would help the players with advertising the gathering. Simu did this at PLAYER request. It was smart of Ginger to get Simu involved that way because the gatherings have had a huge turnout since then. But to then act like Simu is meddling because of what we asked is absurd.

The ONLY difference in their involvement this year and previous years is that they are also letting the players collect the money via their sign-up system. (Note the sign-ups were used last year also, just no charge.) This again was a REQUEST from PLAYERS, they did not offer or ask to do it, nor did they tell us how to do things.

The reason for the charge was simply to provide everyone with a better time. And frankly that part of it is going to be fantastic IMO. No more worries about underage Stoners getting kicked out of the bars, no more security kicking people out of rooms at night because of noise and it will actually make some things CHEAPER. It's cheaper to buy booze and serve it there than it is to keep paying the hotel bar. There is going to be a catered meal one night and there will be less hassle with trying to meet people and arrange transportation, etc.

The "crutch" that the team is using is the same exact crutch that Ginger herself initiated a couple years ago. (I'm sorry Ginger, you know I like you a lot and I am disappointed that I won't be seeing you this year, but what I said is still true.)

Melissa's post was not initiated by the team as far as I know. She did that as an indidivual, I assume to show her support for the players gathering and having a good time.

As for the mini-seminars, frankly I dug in my feet against that the whole time I was on the team. Some GS players have wanted them, but the old timer Vegas people have always made fun of the DR people for doing that and I was one of them. <grin> It was one of the things that set Vegas apart, by emphasizing socializing and nothing official with the game.

There is one person on the team however who has constantly pushed to have them, thinking they should be part of the event since everyone is there. I can't personally say what changed things in that regard since I'm no longer on the team, but I would hazard a guess that the push to have them won out when my resistence was no longer there. But again, that is NOT Simu doing it, but the players planning the event.

I guess I'm posting because planning Vegas is a major headache. Ginger knows that better than anyone. The people on the team this year are all too acquainted with what it's like to try and put on a successful big event while at the same time trying to deal with personality conflicts and differences of opinion on the team itself. When people who don't even know what's going on behind the scenes then make untrue accusations, it simply adds needless stress. Vegas is still very much by the players for the players.

Well that's my $2 worth.

Robin

p.s. There may be various prizes at VegasCon. If there are, it was because *I* asked Simu to donate them, Simu didn't stick their nose in. So if you want to blame someone, blame me! reg

Yeah, but now that we finally do have this, nobody is under 21 anymore. -glances at Ashley- ;)

>>I can't personally say what changed things in that regard since I'm no longer on the team, but I would hazard a guess that the push to have them won out when my resistence was no longer there.

Darnit, Robin! Thanks for the firm stand though. =P

- Pudgee reg

[Rhain]> It wouldn't let me post this in Conventions, so I'll post it here, since it is sorta news.

I think I understand why Simu, and Melissa in particular, wouldn't want you bashing them on their own website. Design your own, and write anything you want. Or use other people to acheive your goals. Practice makes perfect.

[Rhain]> TAKE FULL ADVANTAGE

See my above statement regarding using people.

[Rhain]> I have half a mind to order up twenty tickets myself

Anyone see a pattern here besides me? Lets see .. one ticket for the person, 19 tickets for the ego .. think thats enough?

[Rhain]> Gosh, how did I ever get this thing organized without her help in the years past...

You call things in the past "organized"? I'll agree with that, although not in the same sense of the word, I bet. They were definately organized, or maybe orchestrated would be the better word. Or maybe submarined. Sabotaged. You know what I'm talking about - taking our "for the players, by the players" event and turning into an open forum for other companies to bash Simu right along side you. No wonder they (along with a majority of the players) wanted so badly to distance themselves from you.

And which "her" are you referring to? Lissa, and her contribution of time and effort, or Melissa, with her offer of funds? You know, maybe if you had accepted a little "help" in the past, you wouldn't be whining about your misfortunes right now.

[Rhain]> Poor Lissa, having to use Simu as a crutch.

I guess that answers the "which one" question. The only reason Lissa would have to use a crutch is because you keep trying to knock her down. Yeah, bruises hurt. But then again, so does being stabbed in the back.

[Pudgee]> It's just not the same without you heading the 'Con, Ginger.

It sure isn't. I mean, maybe this time around, we won't feel like we're going to the "Party in Vegas Hosted by Ginger". Maybe this time around, it will feel more like the "Party in Vegas Hosted by Everyone Who Contributed".

[Desharei]> I won't be near Vegas for the con, but I'll see who else I know who either lives in the area, or plans on going to Vegas for any silly ole thing, and have them e-mail Melissa to get the fee paid for (even if they have no intention of going).

You won't be near Vegas? Great! You know people who will help you scam Simu and the other honest players? Great! You'll have them email Melissa and to get their fee paid? Great! Be sure to have them mention who referred them! Great! Had enough of my sarcasm yet? Great!

[Ashemu]> This thread leaves me speechless... sort of.

I feel the same way. On one hand, I feel like getting involved in this game of "pin the tail on the organizer" is a complete waste of time. On the other hand, I've always been a proponent of the truth, no matter how ugly it may be. I decided not to let the truth be blinded by my time-management issues.

[Lissa]> I have to say, while disappointed, I'm not in the least surprised.

I'm not disappointed, but I am surprised. I knew that this ugly fire would have its flames fanned at least one more time before dying its final death. What surprises me is that after all these months, its the same old story being spewed out of the same old mouths. Ginger starts whining, Lissa has to respond, other people have to put their two cents in .. I figured that given this much time, something new would emerge, or that at the very least, I'd see some creative flair on the whole thing. I'm shocked at the resiliance of this fire, given its inability to adapt.

[Lissa]> I guess life just doesn't agree with some people. Unreal.

Did you just realize this? Since the beginning of time people have been angry about one thing or another, and taking it out on someone else has become a tradition in the way of mankind.

[Desharei]> I wouldn't know anything about Lissa "using Simu as a crutch" - so don't think I was responding to that, since I don't even know what she meant by it.

What were you responding to then? Sounded to me like it wasn't even a response - it was more of a shout of support for another of Ginger's failed attempts at undermining the efforts of this years organizers. Go on, shout it out loud - "Go Ginger! Make everyone pay for your mistakes and failure to take responsibility for them!" Well, I guess that isn't much of a cheer - too many words and all, but you get my point.

[Desharei]> I DO know, that regardless of Rhain's bitterness and the flame-war on the official boards surrounding the VegasCon she hosted, that Simu showed very very bad form in not supporting her efforts and making it sound like Rhain was the bad guy throughout that ordeal.

I'm glad you think so. And hey - what if they were right? I'll bring it up again - why would Simu support their competition? Why would they continue to support someone who uses Simu's product to promote another? Its like inviting a bunch of Taco Bell fans to a meeting and then trying to convince them that Del Taco is better, while not inviting Taco Bell to defend themselves. Aren't there laws against corporate espionage?

[Desharei]> I also think Melissa needs to take a closer look (and listen) to the people who pay to play Simutronics games. They're begging to be heard, and it seems to be falling on deaf ears.

I don't think you're speaking for the players as a whole here, Roberta. It sounds more like your own personal gripe that Simu doesn't work exactly the way you think it should. Sure, there may be some support for your ideas, but pleasing everyone just won't happen, no matter who you are. Please don't use the word "they" or "we" when talking about other players, unless you can prove somehow that you have the ability read all of our minds.

[Desharei]> That is what I'm responding to. Forget the fee payment for VegasCon. Spend more time on listening to your customers and less time worrying about a gathering.

Forget the fee payment for VegasCon? Are you proposing the same thing that you condemn Melissa for? Are you offering to pay the fee yourself? You must be blind to think that an event like this doesn't take money, and if we don't collect it from the players, there are only two other places it can come from - people like Ginger, and people like Simu. Since you don't support the players paying, and you obviously don't support Simu doing this, one must assume that you support the Ginger method. What boggles me tho, is that you would be SO generous to fund this whole thing, yet you don't even want to be near Vegas! Go Roberta!

[Kodokai]> I am amazed at the way you ASSUMED that it was Lissa using "Simu as a crutch". Especially when I was the one who called Melissa to discuss what could be done to encourage attendance for this year’s VegasCon. From the look of your post, I feel that it was written with a heavy helping of sarcasm and spite and looks like a directed attack at Lissa.

Of course she is going to assume that Lissa is the one behind everything. Who else has she been focusing her attention on? If you're going to flame someone again and again, it doesn't matter what the truth is, as long as you can focus that flame on your target. Sarcasm and spite aren't the only things in Ginger's toolbox of flame. She also has the lie-hammer, the whine-driver and the hide-everything-with-smilies-wrench.

[Lissa]> I wasn't going to bother posting again, but it bothers me that I tried to hide my feelings behind a wall of sarchasm - frankly, that's just not me.

Of course you have to post again. Flaming is an art form, one that prompts the target into doing things they don't want to do - such as responding. Hiding behind a wall of anything won't help - just stand there and take the flames. You know, if you eat a bunch of gunpowder before you burn, you could probably take the flamer out with you .. just a thought.

[Lissa]> Ginger, your post was hurtful, and I can't get past how stunned and hurt I was that you would so easily, and so completely sacrifice a friend to further your crusade.

Don't feel sacrificed. Don't feel hurt. Feel vindicated in the fact that you have attracted so much attention from a flamer. It isn't easy, being a target, and besides - someone has to do it. And most of all, don't keep letting Ginger know that she's getting to you, even if she is. She's thriving on that - its what she needs to feed her ego and her addiction.

[Lissa]> You KNOW how much work, planning, blood, sweat and tears goes into planning something as large as Vegascon. You, of all people, can appreciate the thankless feeling that you get, and yet the sheer joy of planning the events, and laying the groundwork for people to enjoy themselves and have fun. This isn't my forte', and I don't claim it to be, but I would have thought that you - of all people - would at least appreciate the work going into this.

Does she really know how much of anything goes into planning an event like VegasCon? Besides money, that is. She can quote to the penny about how much 'effort' she put in. Don't ask her for sympathy or understanding .. she couldn't possibly have any.

[Lissa]> I felt so badly the last couple of years when I learned how you would put so much cash out of your own pocket to help fund "OUR" good time. I can't imagine how exasperating it must have been for you to take the financial hit, when noone stepped up to the plate and help. I couldn't do it. Even if I wanted to, especially in today's economy, I just couldn't afford to do it.

If she had any of the "organizational skills" that she implies you are lacking, Lissa, she wouldn't have had to take that hit. She took that hit because the cost was worth the reward. I tell you what - everyone that ever attended a GingerCon knew who Ginger was. Being the center of attention doesn't come cheap when you don't have what it takes without buying your way there.

[Lissa]> Noone should have to do it.

She didn't "have" to do it. She wanted to. She got what she paid for, too. I just hope it was worth it.

[Lissa]> I can see where reading Melissa’s post, displayed by itself the way it was posted here, could be taken so out of context. Without benefit of the prior hundreds of posts as backdrop to set the tone, it is easy to see where Roberta might have drawn the conclusion that she did – however wrong it may be.

All I'm going to say about Melissa's post is this - she offered to pay out of HER OWN POCKET. Simu isn't paying for anything. They are donating a few prizes, but not even Ginger turned down that from Simu. They are posting information on their website - again, Ginger didn't turn that down. They are providing a means to sign up for the event - nothing new there. The only thing "extra" they are providing is the collection of funds. Where's the problem with that? I say thank you, Simutronics.

[Lissa]> On the other hand, however noble the intended questioning of priorities might have been – the high ground was lost when you suggest that people knowingly exploit Melissa’s generosity by sending false requests for funding – “by having them e-mail Melissa to get the fee paid for (even if they have no intention of going).”

There is nothing wrong with questioning things. There is nothing wrong with stating personal opinions. There IS something wrong, however, in conspiring to commit fraud, in harrassment, and, although not illegal, trying to undermine the efforts of others. So sayeth the law, so sayeth me.

[Lissa]> Are you really so malicious? Are you truly THAT bitter that you would not only laugh at, but encourage the personal attack on a person the way that you so blatantly suggest for people to exploit Melissa's kindness?

There is no dissecting this one .. I'd say the answer to all of the above is a resounding "yes". Of course, thats just my opinion.

[Lissa]> How sad that in your world, there is room for so much animosity and malice.

It isn't sad. Its just the way some people are. If people want to be mean, let them. If they want to be mean to you, don't hold back in your retribution.

[Buckwheet]> Between Simucon and Vegascon. I would personally rather go to Vegas con.

There is a wonderful word in the dictionary - one of my favorites. That word is "choice". Everyone has it, not everyone knows how to use it. Choice is the battle cry shouted by the first into the fray. Choice is what makes a leader. Choice is what makes people get into stupid arguments on internet message boards. Choice is what makes them stop.

[Buckwheet]> Mainly because it sounded like people go there with the idea to have more fun then at Simucon. Not to mention I know of several people who only go to Simucon to yell and scream about "their" game.

VegasCon IS fun. Many people say it is a more relaxed environment, one where players can talk to players about whatever they want. SimuCon is a more structured environment, where the focus is on Simutronics and the game services they provide. It really does come down to choice when trying to decide which one is right for you.

[Buckwheet] Its sad to see this amount of controversy surround this event.

Controversy promotes change. And thats exactly what VegasCon needs right now. It was almost destroyed last year, and what you are seeing now is the aftermath of those events.

[Buckwheet]> Granted I have never been able to go to Vegascon, but now I don't know if I would want to.

Don't let the current debacle dissaude you from coming to VegasCon. This is an arguement between the organizers of the past and the organizers of today. Hopefully, except for the unfortunate few who have to read about it here, this arguement will be invisible to the attendees of VegasCon.

[Prestius (in response to Buckwheet)]> Why? The only controversy here is Ginger's sniping. There is no controversy. VegasCon is a blast, and will be this year as usual! It's definately a lot more laid back and casual than SimuCon, altough I highly recommend both -- SimuCon for the fun. fellowship, and great game info; Vegascon for the drinking, gambling, general mayhem, and overall fun with new and old GS pals.

Couldn't have said that better myself. Well, I tried, but I like yours better.

[Prestius]> Don't let the petty bitterness exhibited in this thread get throw you. SimuCon may be Simu's show, but VegasCon is first and formost a PLAYERS event. It's great that Simu helps out with getting the word out, but for the most part they have little to nothing to do with it.

You people should be glad Prestius didn't dissect everything like I'm doing right now. He might not have been nearly as long-winded, but the points I am trying to make would have been driven home just as well.

[Prestius]> And Ginger .. what's up? Yeah .. there were issues at last year's VegasCon, but that wasn't any of our fault. Why take it out on Lissa? We just wanna have a good time.

"We just wanna have a good time." Prestius, I nominate you the un-official voice of VegasCon. Well said.

[IceAgeThief]> It just sounds like a lot of cheap shots being fired in several directions to me.

Well of course they are. Thats what internet message boards are for. The original intent was to share information and promote growth, but it didn't take us humans long to mess that up.

[Desharei (in response to Lissa)]> Umm, actually, no. I don't know anyone who lives in Vegas besides Rhaindrop, and I don't know anyone planning on going to Vegas that week. I have no bitterness about Simutronics, in any way, shape, or form, and still include some of its customers and staff as online pals.

So that was an empty threat/suggestion/response/whatever you want to call it? And since you have no bitterness towards Simutronics .. hold on. I gotta call this one like I see it. YOU BROWN-NOSER! Anything else you want to change your mind about while you're at it? You don't have to mean it, but just in case someone at Simu is reading any of this, here's your chance to shower off that stink.

[Desharei]> I do, however, think Simu should stop expending all this energy to promote a non-Simu gathering, and place it in game improvements where it belongs. Also, I take *NO* sides involving past issues between Rhain and Melissa, because I think they both had valid points and that they both made mistakes equally. I do, however, see Ginger's side of this particular issue, that Melissa made such a stink about Ginger's coordination of her VegasCon, where now she's not only supporting someone else's efforts to do the same thing, but offering to pay people to go. I certainly can see how Ginger would feel insulted by that public announcement.

I'm sorry, did I read that right? Stop expending all this energy? Honestly, the energy was expended quite some time ago - when Ginger was running things. The website info had been done before, the in-game news had been done before, the registration system had been done before .. all that was really required was a little editing.

And again, correct me if I'm wrong, but how can you say "I take *NO* sides" and then go on to explain how you sympathize with Ginger? Between the "bitterness towards Simu" and this one .. I have to wonder if you have any hypocracy left in you? Do you really think people don't notice? Please, refrain from any more forum pollution. Seek the services of a professional psychiatrist to help you work through your "issues".

[Desharei]> It's called empathizing. It is not called being bitter, "in my world."

I think we've already established whats going on in "your world". Enough said.

[Rhain]> Were you guys just *waiting* for me to say something? I've been PRETTY DAMN GOOD about not saying a word of opinion on Lissa/Dagor's organizational abilities, any ideas being tossed around on what events are taking place, the idea of charging for an event that I bent over backwards to make sure no one had to pay for anything they didn't want to do and that everyone could go with that in mind, I haven't commented on this year's festivities AT ALL. The only thing I've brought up on these boards was the past and even then it was done in emails to anyone who gave a crap. And I was completely fair.

Ginger, Ginger .. settle down, take a breather, pop a valium .. you're too tense! You didn't really expect people to read your post and just take it without responding, did you? I mean, you were fanning the fire on purpose, weren't you? If all the "Thank You"'s and attention you bought yourself wasn't enough .. do it again! Bend over backwards and whine through your knees, for all I care.

I can tell you one thing tho - you should ask Roberta who her new shrink is, and schedule yourself in. "The only thing I've brought up on these boards was the past" when placed along side "even then it was done in emails" .. you tell me what that says. How can you post emails on boards? And on top of that, how can you be sure it was directed only to "anyone who gave a crap."? Make up your mind, and stick with one story, please. And look up the definition for "completely fair", because I think you've mistaken that for "totally one-sided".

[Rhain]> I had even contemplated going to ENJOY the celebration this year, sucking it up and walking in and appreciating the hard work it TAKES to organize this. I cannot begin to imagine the sacrafices made to bring this event with a 'change of management' so to speak. You all must have taken a lotta grief.

I still think you should show up. Suck it up, walk in and appreciate the hard work it takes to organize this. And speaking of taking grief from people .. don't forget to speak up and mention your name!

[Rhain]> The only person I've been voicing my personal opinions on the goings on here is my poor husband. Who, rightfully so, is still fuming over the way things went down last year. I even told him yesterday that I'd love to be the one to rise above and just put it all aside for the sake of seeing my friends having a good time.

Your husband isn't the only one hearing your personal opinions, that I can be sure of. I mean, if that were true, that would make all of us your husband .. enough of that thought. I bet he's fuming over last year. Did he see all those pictures of you? Is that why he's mad? Did he hear about the guys you were chasing after? Is that it?

Yes, I'm sure you'd love to be the one to rise above .. again. Miss the ol' spotlight, do you? Thats ok, you can still peek out of the shadows now and again by stirring things up on message boards like this one. Of course sometimes that spotlight isn't exactly the one you were after, is it. Like right now. You. Spotlight. Standing there. Looking stupid. I bet you hope it turns off soon. Is that sweat on your brow?

[Rhain]> Then I got that post in an email. It made me laugh, we never got an offer like that from Simutronics, we never had to take advantage of the pockets because it was VERY clearly stated that this wasn't a mini-Simucon, and I didn't want to be controlled by them. But in the end it didn't seem to matter what *I* wanted. It's about what they want.

Instead of saying it again, I'll ask you to scroll up and read what I wrote about Melissa and Simutronics. Be sure to pay special attention to that line where it says the money is coming from HER OWN POCKET.

Of course it mattered what you wanted, Ginger. Thats why we had all those other game companies there. Remember - there are 23 letters in the alphabet that aren't in the word TEAM .. and I is one of them.

[Rhain]> I think that everyone SHOULD take advantage of Melissa's offer. Why pay if she's willing to pay your way?????

So emphatic with those question marks! You really are confused about this, so let me try to explain. Melissa's offer was very specific:

[Melissa (via email)]> Some people, I assume, are hard up for cash and can't afford the $35 registration fee. If that's the case, please email me. *** I WILL PAY YOUR REGISTRATION FEE OUT OF MY OWN POCKET *** I can't pay your transportation fee, and I won't pay for your drinks, but I'll get you in the door if you get there.

Notice the part where it says "can't afford"? That doesn't say "take advantage of". In fact, I can't really see a loophole in that whole offer. If you can afford to get to VegasCon, afford to find a place to stay, afford food and drink .. chances are, you can probably afford the registration fee as well. If not, then should you really be here? The only people I can see this offer possibly applying to are people that already live in Las Vegas, don't have the money to register, and wouldn't be putting any extra funds into attending VegasCon other than the registration fee. If you can find a loophole in that, let me know.

[Rhain]> That's the point I was putting in the spotlight. Mentioning Lissa using Simutronics as a crutch has nothing to do with how I feel about her personally, I could have even said "The VegasCon organizing team using Simutronics as a crutch"...

You could have, but what stopped you? Why focus on Lissa, yet again? Oh wait, I sense that personal accusation coming up .. right .. now.

[Rhain]> Because you are...
[Rhain]> And that's a fact.

Normally, when one states something as a fact, there is some form of evidence to go along with it. Some sort of incontroversial evidence. You know, the kind that holds water in court?

[Rhain]> And I'm not being a sniper, and I'm not doing this to make myself feel better, I'm just making a point about a post that was emailed to me. I'm sorry if you are all taking this as a personal attack. But it doesn't surprise me at all.

You're right. Snipers have much better aim than you .. I'd call it more of a "suppressive fire". Taking blind shots in the dark, hoping something hits home, thats what I see here. You don't feel better about posting all of this? Well do you feel worse? I can't see a point in posting anything unless it makes you feel better. Why bother to make a point about a post if it doesn't make you feel better? And we can't "all" take this as a "personal attack". That would be a neat trick tho. I bet we'll see something like that in The Matrix 2 or 3. I can't wait.

[Rhain]> p.s. Lissa you made it very clear to me ages ago that you don't consider me a friend, so I'm not exactly sure what you meant by sacrificing someone to 'further my cause'...

Wait, maybe this explains it. A personal attack, presented to all. Not really effective tho, since being a personal attack, all it does is show everyone else how shallow you are, posting private things in a public place. How would you like it if Lissa wrote your phone number in a bathroom stall somewhere?

[Rhain]> I made a simple post, with a simple introduction and a word for word post by Melissa.

Maybe if that were true, and there were no hidden intentions of ill-will, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. Simple would have been "I got this email today and wanted to share it. ::email goes here::" How hard would that have been, if you really wanted to just share the info?

[Pudgee (responding to Rhain and Prestius)]> Yeah, but each year, things creep closer to this being a mini-Simucon or being in the hands of Simutronics. Remember last year? They were thinking of taking over the show after what happened with Ginger. At least this time, it seems as if everything is still in the hands of the players, but of course, some organizers do somewhat work for Simu, and then having Melissa help out with some funds, that doesn't look nice either. Oh yeah, and let's not forget that this year we're having seminars too! -boo hisses-

Is this message board nothing more than a place to post one's need for mental diagnosis? Of course Simu considered taking control after last year's fiasco. Who needs more bad publicity directed at their customers? The current organizers do NOT "somewhat work for Simu". We do communicate with them, so that they can inform the other players of this event. They have provided a few prizes, some website space and a news item in-game. That is ALL. The GM forums (not seminars) are not required .. boo and hiss at them from far, far away - you have the freedom to do so. There are really a few ways to look at this. You can go to SimuCon, and be spoon-fed a bunch of info from a GM, or you can come to VegasCon, and actually TALK with that GM. There's quite a difference. Another thing to consider is that some people can't make it to SimuCon. Are you going to deny them the opportunity to interact with the GMs simply because they can't make it to St. Louis? Think for yourself, because thinking for other people is more than most can handle.

[Pudgee]> I don't know about you, but this sure doesn't feel like any of the past Vegascons. This *is* now Simucon whether or not you want to believe it. I know the new people to Vegascon are going to flock to the seminars like old Dragonrealms players only caring about knowing/talking about game mechanics like some Trekkie. At least I know the veterans of Vegascon are still going to go out gambling, to strip clubs, and basically cause lots of trouble. Now *that's* Vegascon! -grins-

Pudgee, I'm glad you have your own opinions on this. Don't try to impose that opinion on anyone else. Using your own thoughts, wouldn't that make you just like the people you are crying about? Simu, imposing GM forums on the players? Since you feel that you are in some "special club", i.e. a "veteran of Vegascon", and can somehow predict what all the other "veterans" will be doing for 4 days, let me tell you this. You are WRONG. I, for one, being a veteran, will be attending at least one of the GM forums. And I'd be willing to bet there are others, as well. This is NOT SimuCon, no matter how you look at it. I won't stop you from calling it what you will, but I will do what I can to set facts straight. You should do the same.

-Aemergin Milesios, Giantkin Bard
-Erik Johnson, VegasCon Coordinator

[This message has been edited by Aemergin (edited 02-13-2002).] reg

Until then,

Aemergin reg

If i read that wrong, and a fee isnt required...then i'll see you people there.

-John

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-bReAkZ nATiOnZ-
- breakznation@aol.com
- AIM: highlord42o reg

Yes I saw pictures. Did I see anything that would suggest she was chasing after guys? Can't say that I did. Never heard anything about that from anyone I knew that went either. Sounds like accusations aimed at hurting Ginger.

"Normally, when one states something as a fact, there is some form of evidence to go along with it. Some sort of incontroversial evidence. You know, the kind that holds water in court?"

Just taking a line you used. Since you didn't state the previous statement as fact I'll regard it as you just trying to cause Ginger some pain.

Why so venomous towards Ginger Erik? It's very evident you've got alot of anger going on.

Nicely structured post you made though. It definately took alot of time and thought.

-Long time player
-Nick Graham

reg

Not my idea of an entertaining weekend. I'll stay home and watch test patterns on TV. reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Aemergin:
You won't be near Vegas? Great! You know people who will help you scam Simu and the other honest players? Great! You'll have them email Melissa and to get their fee paid? Great! Be sure to have them mention who referred them! Great! Had enough of my sarcasm yet? Great!

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Hey Aemergin, ever get mad at your dog for misbehaving and say, out loud, "I'm gonna kill that pooch!" Ever actually kill it? Of course not. Maybe ask your shrink what the term for that is...I don't think it's an uncommon thing for people to do, whether aimed at a dog or at a Simutronics employee.

quote:

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[Desharei]> I wouldn't know anything about Lissa "using Simu as a crutch" - so don't think I was responding to that, since I don't even know what she meant by it.

What were you responding to then? Sounded to me like it wasn't even a response - it was more of a shout of support for another of Ginger's failed attempts at undermining the efforts of this years organizers. Go on, shout it out loud - "Go Ginger! Make everyone pay for your mistakes and failure to take responsibility for them!" Well, I guess that isn't much of a cheer - too many words and all, but you get my point.

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quote:

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[Desharei]> I DO know, that regardless of Rhain's bitterness and the flame-war on the official boards surrounding the VegasCon she hosted, that Simu showed very very bad form in not supporting her efforts and making it sound like Rhain was the bad guy throughout that ordeal.

I'm glad you think so. And hey - what if they were right? I'll bring it up again - why would Simu support their competition? Why would they continue to support someone who uses Simu's product to promote another? Its like inviting a bunch of Taco Bell fans to a meeting and then trying to convince them that Del Taco is better, while not inviting Taco Bell to defend themselves. Aren't there laws against corporate espionage?

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Simu had originally supported Ginger's efforts, and during the time she had sent Melissa a letter telling her precisely what she wanted to do with the Con that year. Melissa didn't send a response to it right away, and Ginger thought all was well until Melissa came out and made a huge bruhaha about the whole thing - two weeks before the Con. By then there was nothing left to do other than both sides be upset, and hope for the best.

quote:

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[Desharei]> I also think Melissa needs to take a closer look (and listen) to the people who pay to play Simutronics games. They're begging to be heard, and it seems to be falling on deaf ears.

I don't think you're speaking for the players as a whole here, Roberta. It sounds more like your own personal gripe that Simu doesn't work exactly the way you think it should. Sure, there may be some support for your ideas, but pleasing everyone just won't happen, no matter who you are. Please don't use the word "they" or "we" when talking about other players, unless you can prove somehow that you have the ability read all of our minds.

---

And the people have been showing their disappointment with GemStoneIII with their pockets. Only two years ago, 1800 players online during prime time wasn't abnormal; now it's more like 1200, and I've observed a far greater number of multi-accounts than when there were 1800. Proof? No. Evidence? Damned skippy.

quote:

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[Desharei]> That is what I'm responding to. Forget the fee payment for VegasCon. Spend more time on listening to your customers and less time worrying about a gathering.

Forget the fee payment for VegasCon? Are you proposing the same thing that you condemn Melissa for? Are you offering to pay the fee yourself? You must be blind to think that an event like this doesn't take money, and if we don't collect it from the players, there are only two other places it can come from - people like Ginger, and people like Simu. Since you don't support the players paying, and you obviously don't support Simu doing this, one must assume that you support the Ginger method. What boggles me tho, is that you would be SO generous to fund this whole thing, yet you don't even want to be near Vegas! Go Roberta!

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Huh? Pay close attention here:

Melissa offers to pay out of her pocket the $35 fee. There are people who will take advantage of her generosity even if they don't need to. Melissa will be swamped with requests, and will ultimately have to come up with guidelines to determine who gets the money and who doesn't. Lots of energy and time spent on this little generous offer. Time and energy that could have been spent focusing on the game. I told her to stop worrying about what people can and can't afford, and spend that energy on the game. Sometimes, when I say something, I mean what I say and not some hidden other meaning. Sometimes, simply following the context of the post, rather than individual snippets, will reveal this mysterious concept.

quote:

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[Desharei (in response to Lissa)]> Umm, actually, no. I don't know anyone who lives in Vegas besides Rhaindrop, and I don't know anyone planning on going to Vegas that week. I have no bitterness about Simutronics, in any way, shape, or form, and still include some of its customers and staff as online pals.

So that was an empty threat/suggestion/response/whatever you want to call it? And since you have no bitterness towards Simutronics .. hold on. I gotta call this one like I see it. YOU BROWN-NOSER! Anything else you want to change your mind about while you're at it? You don't have to mean it, but just in case someone at Simu is reading any of this, here's your chance to shower off that stink.

---

Err, I have nothing to gain or lose by saying anything about Simu or its employees. I don't play any of their games anymore. See above comparison to the "I'm gonna kill" (the dog) analogy for an explanation.

quote:

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[Desharei]> I do, however, think Simu should stop expending all this energy to promote a non-Simu gathering, and place it in game improvements where it belongs. Also, I take *NO* sides involving past issues between Rhain and Melissa, because I think they both had valid points and that they both made mistakes equally. I do, however, see Ginger's side of this particular issue, that Melissa made such a stink about Ginger's coordination of her VegasCon, where now she's not only supporting someone else's efforts to do the same thing, but offering to pay people to go. I certainly can see how Ginger would feel insulted by that public announcement.

I'm sorry, did I read that right? Stop expending all this energy? Honestly, the energy was expended quite some time ago - when Ginger was running things. The website info had been done before, the in-game news had been done before, the registration system had been done before .. all that was really required was a little editing.

And again, correct me if I'm wrong, but how can you say "I take *NO* sides" and then go on to explain how you sympathize with Ginger? Between the "bitterness towards Simu" and this one .. I have to wonder if you have any hypocracy left in you? Do you really think people don't notice? Please, refrain from any more forum pollution. Seek the services of a professional psychiatrist to help you work through your "issues".

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And now you've decided to take personal potshots at me - and I have NO idea who you are? That really doesn't help support your points. People who've been reading this forum for the past year would know I have no bitterness toward Simu. I have no reason to be bitter toward them, they never did anything "to me" for me to be bitter about. ::shrugs::

quote:

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[Desharei]> It's called empathizing. It is not called being bitter, "in my world."

I think we've already established whats going on in "your world". Enough said.

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I don't know why you have such an issue with my psychological health, unless it's just more of that "I'm gonna kill that dog" stuff that you criticized me for. ::shrugs::

reg

'lood
i knew the game of fisticuffs... reg

Buckwheet reg

PLEASE KILL THIS THREAD.

PLEASE.

I like everyone involved, and it's gone past the point of "rational discourse".

Ashemu's player reg

W O W.

I had no idea he, of all the quietest people in the world, could be so hateful.

I may have a large bark, but my bite has never been that hard. I'm so completely very sorry if my words have caused such malice and anger to come into ANYONE's lives.

It's absolutely not worth it to me to post my personal feelings or frustrations with Simutronics, especially when I don't even play anymore.

I know who my friends are, they have accepted me even with my inability to keep my mouth shut when I should, and to love me for who I am and not what they read or hear from the grapevine. I am not the evil person everyone wants me to be.

Good luck with your event Lissa, Dagor, and Sean. I know you guys will have a blast. I even took a tip from you with the Sahara for my gathering in August. It's a great hotel and everyone will love it.

All the best,

Ginger

I'm sorry I won't attend, after reading that post from Amergin, I'm not sure I'd be very safe..

reg

I can't believe you posted all that and how bitter it was. Whatever personal feelings people have about things last year or Ginger personally, the FACT still remains that VegasCon is what it is because of Ginger. She wasn't the only one helping with planning things the last couple years, Kathy did a lot of helping a couple years ago and Nancy and I did a lot last year. But Ginger was the one who originally said, hey guys, we can make this a big deal and make it a lot more fun by putting some organization into it. And that's exactly what has happened. If it hadn't been for Ginger, Vegas would still be a gathering of around 30 people who don't even know how to meet up with each other or where to go. (My first Vegas was fun, but it was mostly hit or miss catching up to people, except for the BBQ at Harcourt's, and even then getting there was hell.)

I may not see eye to eye with Ginger on everything all the time, but she's a hell of a lot of fun and you were also way out of line with a lot of the stuff you said.

Robin - wishing people on all sides would just push the skeletons back into the closet reg

Leslie

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Smell that shoe! reg