Timothy McVeigh, martyr? reg
Tim McVeigh
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Deprav:
Timothy McVeigh, martyr?
No he isn't a martyr.
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Man of many opinions reg
To certain people he is, to others he may not be. reg
That is why I oppose the death penalty. He is for many people a martyr and an example of why the death penalty serves no beneficial purpose. Don't get me wrong here, I don't agree with what he did, he selfishly and irresponsibly terminated the lives of many people, but you have to look at this from an unbiased point of view.
When the U.S drops a bomb by total surprise on a group of civilians who had no forewarning and who end up vaporizing to death in under a second and do it again the next day, it's not seen as an act of terrorism. It's not even seen as murder. But when a man who in his own mind did a good thing and executed a similar attack to a building in Oklahoma, oh hell yeah, it's murder, it's an act of terrorism, it's the worst act of terrorism ever committed on U.S soil.
Death penalty gives power to the government which they never had the right to in the first place. Life is not a priveledge, it's a right.
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg
My opinion...
First of all the damn media is what made him a martyr. Just like the school shootings.
Second. He killed something like 168 people. Why should I as a taxpayer pay for him to live in a prison for the next 50 years?
Prisons that I have seen are ridiculus. They get cable TV, state of the art computers and high speed internet. They get steak dinners, free highschool education, even college education.
How much do they pay for that? Not one dime.
Personally I think they can have a TV, broadcast stations only, chess boards, and a 6x14 cell. None of this other BS.
Prison is not supposed to be better then a five star hotel. Hell there are inmates in prison who are making millions each year because they could start a company inside prison on the internet.
Prison isn't supposed to be the way to a better life, just a law abiding one.
Buckwheet
My two cents. reg
Problem I have with your arguement Buckwheet is that you're mixing and matching aspects from different prison levels.
In a maximum security federal prison you don't get your fancy cable T.V, you are not fed steaks, there is no computer and can't in anyway make a penny because nothing belongs to you.
In a minimum security prison you do indeed get all those priviledges, like computers, books, heck even clothes and acceptable food. But minimum security prisons are for petty theft and small crimes. And then there is also medium security which is a bit of both.
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg
The question still remains.
How much is it costing the taxpayers for Max. Secuity prisons?
Tell me why I should "have" to pay for it.
Don't say because you live here. Tell me why I should give someone who killed 168 people money to live?
If they didn't put him in prison would I just walk up and hand him money? No.
Barbaric? Probably. But when I see that same killer save one person's life I might think different.
Buckwheet
reg
Actually Buckwheet, McVeigh was in a 10x16 foot room with no windows. He had access to a black and white TV and that's about it for entertainment. He was let out to exercise for 1 hour per day. He was in a federal prison, not a state prison, and had no access to all the stuff you claim he did. Putting someone in a cell with nothing to do is for me considered ‘cruel and unusual punishment’. The government spent 85 MILLION dollars prosecuting McVeigh, and an additional 15M to pay for his defense. Yet it cost a mere 85$ to kill him.
I believe McVeigh’s cause was justified, but he should have went about a different way of exposing what the Government did in Ruby Ridge/Waco. I personally believe he should have assassinated such people as Lon Horiuchi and Janet Reno. He later came to the recognition that this would have been a more effective way of getting his message out.
The amount of money you're paying for him to be in prison is so small compared to what you paid for him to be prosecuted that is an inefficient argument.
-Pirub
[This message has been edited by Pirub9 (edited 06-12-2001).] reg
Thats because of the liberals. The US judicial system blows and everyone knows it. As soon as McVeigh admitted to the bombing they should have put 3 bullets into his head. Case closed, millions of dollars saved.
Nietslaf reg
I dunno, I view myself as pretty liberal in most ways, extremely old fashioned and rigid in others. But if McVeigh admitted to it, and they had convincing evidence leading them to believe he was telling the truth and not just some wacko looking for attention (it's happened, don't kid yourselves!), I'd say put the bullets in his head too.
Only problem would be if..what if he was crazy and making it up? We'd have some person running loose who just killed over 150 people, and some crazy person who didn't do it - dead.
Judicial system may be whacked, but it's what we've got and *most* of the time it works.
That's *this* liberal's point of view. Don't know about any other liberals' points, you'd have to ask them 
reg
quote:
When the U.S drops a bomb by total surprise on a group of civilians who had no forewarning and who end up vaporizing to death in under a second and do it again the next day, it's not seen as an act of terrorism. It's not even seen as murder
Did we forget the hundreds of planes dropping bombs on a harbor as the japanese feigned peace negotiations?
An eye for an eye...
An act of war is a slight diference from a civilian killing civilians of his own country.
When you murder people you not only give up privelages, but rights as well.
reg
Well obviosly Buckwheet now is informed about the different kinds of prisons.
<<<"Only problem would be if..what if he was crazy and making it up? We'd have some person running loose who just killed over 150 people, and some crazy person who didn't do it - dead.">>>
Just a thought to throw at you, over 90 people have been taken off of death row do to the advances in science technoligy (dna,ect.)
Also if we were punishing him, we would rather just keep him in jail. For Gods sake he wanted to die as soon as possible! He told his attorneys that he did not want to stay in prison any longer, just get it over with. Kinda hyprocrytical that his lawyers several days before his death decided to prolong his death? You decide.
They said he never said a word in the chamber. He still feels what he did was write. In my view killing that many people is wrong, but look at what we have done with other countries! Open up your eyes people. Why can one person kill another and be just, and in another case it is not. Government conspiracy? maybe. I use to be very death penalty, but my view has changed after this case. reg
<< An act of war is a slight diference from a civilian killing civilians of his own country. >>
So it's okay if the military kills innocent civilians so long as they live in another country and are in a time of war right? Nothing immoral about that, they probably deserved it didn't they right? All those civilian japanese heading to work in the morning, what evil and despicable people they must be and the U.S did the right thing in burning 265 thousand of them in under 3 days and then letting the survivors suffer some of the most gruesome effects of nuclear radiation and poisoning. Acceptable punishment isn't it, they asked for it didn't they, heck they should be grateful that the U.S didn't wipe them off the map and instead let them continue as a country with a puppet government.
Wrong... 2463 Americans died from the attack on Pearl Harbor and the Japanese attacked a military establishment, not a city. The U.S killed 140,000 people in Hiroshima from the one nuclear weapon, and for some it was an instant death, and for others they died from the black rain that followed. Litteraly black rain which was totally unexpected and rained down for over an hour that burned many other survivers of the initial blast. Heck two days later they did it again and killed another 125k. So much for an eye for an eye, more like touch me and I'll burn you.
It all goes back to me being completely against humans who think they have the right to decide what other humans should live and what humans should die. That's human arrogance at work.
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard
[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 06-13-2001).] reg
My take... I do not have one.
McVeigh was wrong, aye, dead wrong. So was the military for killing hundreds of thousands of innocents in a war. There are rules, but rules are always broken. There is no helping it. Man will be man, and life goes on. Just another pointless argument.
- Me. reg
Well McVeigh admitted to his lawyers he did it two days after the bombing, but that is between him and the lawyer. After that he only admitted to the bombing a month before he was going to be executed, in discussions with the Lou Michel, Dan Herbeck authors of American Terrorist. Is it a coincidence that the FBI uncovers 4,000 documents a week before his execution and only three weeks after he confessed?
-Pirub reg
<<Wrong... 2463 Americans died from the attack on Pearl Harbor and the Japanese attacked a military establishment, not a city. The U.S killed 140,000 people in Hiroshima from the one nuclear weapon, and for some it was an instant death, and for others they died from the black rain that followed.>>
When you get hit, you hit back and you hit back hard. Otherwise people will walk all over you; it's the way of the world. You can either admit this or you can admit that you are (weaker) because. Besides, I consider 1 dead American way more of a loss than 140,000 japs, let alone 2463 Americans. We should have claimed Japan and heavily taxed them.
Nietslaf
edited for language
[This message has been edited by Fralcon (edited 06-14-2001).] reg
<< There is no helping it. Just another pointless argument. >>
While reading this it made me thought of a quote from a holocaust survivor who wasn't jewish or black but was still targetted for execution.
When he said the Jews would die, it was none of my business so I let it be. When he went for the gypsies, it didn't affect me, so I continued with my life. When he executed the blacks, I wasn't involved, so I went my own way. However when he finally came for me, there was no one left to listen.
Point is, it's probably never a big deal or anything important until it finally slaps you in the face. Then it's all of a sudden a big deal but it's probably too late by then. Luckily survived the holocaust.
To me discussing issues concerning the well being of humanity isn't pointless. Infact it's the increasing number of people who are beginning to care and speak up about it that is causing for a safer and more civilized world. I don't think the world is worse off now than it was in the past, and I look forward to an even safer future without the need to use bombs, guns, and destruction as means of feeling proud and mighty.
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg
<< When you get hit, you hit back and you hit back hard. >>
Heh, maybe at school or a bunch of little kids trying to act all big and "cool" will have that attitude to keep their "image" of being a tough guy. But when it comes to world political issues you're on a totally new playing field. The Japanese are patriots, they were so blinded by their patriotism that many of them lined up voluntarily to be part of the kamakazi and give their life.
You really think that keeping a country of patriots under your leech will work for anymore than 40-50 years? Have you ever studied history or anything about revolutions?
Don't mix little petty issues like "He pushed you Kranar, you gonna take that from him or you gonna push back harder?" with issues that concern an entire civilazation and society.
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg
You obviously know little conflict Kranar. Seeing as how Canada's most active role in any sort of conflict is the CFL, I can't really blame you. You have the wrong idea about the Japanese and so do most people. The most dedicated country of WW2 was Germany. If you doubt this don't even bother arguing because you know nothing. After that Russia, then Japan/America/England are tied for 3rd.
Many Americans were and are willing to give their lives in the defense of my country. You think all the invaders at Iwo Jima honestly thought they'd survive? Most of them knew they would die and most of them did. I've spoken with a few of the almost non existent remaining survivors and let me tell you that none of them said they expected to survive a day on that island.
Perhaps you feel that the Japanese are extra selfless when it comes to the defense of their country, but you are dead wrong. If they were so patriot and willing to die for Japan, what happened on the deck of the Missouri?
Nietslaf reg
I'm arab... I suppose that means I should be dead doesn't it or that I've commited several acts of terrorism eh?
Whatever... heh...
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg
I was refering to all minorities. reg
<< You obviously know little conflict Kranar. Seeing as how Canada's most active role in any sort of conflict is the CFL, I can't really blame you. You have the wrong idea about the Japanese and so do most people. The most dedicated country of WW2 was Germany. If you doubt this don't even bother arguing because you know nothing. After that Russia, then Japan/America/England are tied for 3rd. >>
Look Nietslaf, pointing to my race, country, or other silly sarcasm doesn't help your point. You try and debate using such skin deep arguements that if you do have a point, it's getting lost in what is a rather serious lack of maturity. It's really not going to serve much of a point debating this if the strongest arguement you can think of is saying that if I don't think in such a restrictive manner as you I should just come out and admit I'm a pussy or I know nothing.
Look at your most recent post, the only support you've made to defend your position is that I obviously know nothing, that I'm Canadian, and pointing to assumptions. Although however you did point to something which does contain content, I'd say most people do get tired of having to read all the way down through your post to find something of actual decent information. We really can't go much further in a debate like this.
I won't discuss personal maturity levels, but we're argueing on two different and incompatible levels here. I don't mind argueing with a right wing extremist, I've had quite intelligent conversations on political issues, but I'm afraid this just isn't one of them.
If all you've extracted from my arguement is my defense of the Japanese in one of the most devastating crimes then you're looking on the surface of what I'm saying. I would like to hear some of your arguements as they have been well stated in the past, just don't hide your arguement behind a bunch of slack vocabulary. It just turns the conversation into a who can come up with a bigger badder way to insult the other guy's point of view, and really that was fun when I was in grade 8, but it's kind of dull now.
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard
[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 06-13-2001).]
[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 06-13-2001).] reg
I know I speak for a lot of lip biting (people) when I say that we need to lock down the immigration flood gates in America. This country is literally being overrun by unskilled foreigners. We need to get rid of all noncommercial (illegitimate) visas too. Japan is going to have to do the same thing. These people come their piss hole countries to America and will turn it into the same thing. They are a disease if you will. I'll die fighting before I let America turn into New Pakistan or New Ecuador.
Nietslaf
edited for language
[This message has been edited by Fralcon (edited 06-14-2001).] reg
First of all, Kranar your canadian? Do you like hockey, cause I love it.
Well anyhows, Nietslaf, you obviously seem to be a tad bit racial. Well people coming from other countries and getting my job is upsetting to me. Although, I remind myself I am not a Native American, and I did not live in this country first. So I still do consider myself to be a foreigner. I have about 10 or so different cultures in me and my great-great grandparents were all naturally born in this country, but still I am not a native. I do however live in this country and do want to see the best for this country, so I do stay in politics quite often, I do support the government even though I do not agree with it the majority of the time, and also I live as an American. America, Australia, and Canada are the three best countries anyone can live in from a political standpoint.
Also someone mentioned earlier about us killing 140,000 Japs and later another 125,000. Well my view is on it they new that we would not take the bombing well and they got what they deserved. If the United states was getting attacked and my family died defending it and myself defending it, I would die very proud. Those Japs who died, died defending their country. Maybe they did not have the best defense, but they did not flee their country at time of war. I'm sure alot of Americans would flee to Mexico and Canada if the US was getting bombed. But I have much more respect for a person who fights for his country.
Here is a though, McVeigh attacked our country, so we defended our country and destroyed the enemy. Maybe some of my views agrees with McVeigh, but if I seen him with that bomb, in order to defend my country I would have shot him down.
I am very patriotic towards my country and I am rather young and so are many of my friends and I know for a fact they would die defending our country. Now on the other hand though, I will not go to war with another country in another land. I do not believe in war, seems rather pointless considering that we all adventually go to the same place and we do not need to make it any sooner than it is. Outer countries have their own beliefs just as our country does.
Lord Deprav
Please keep it on/or close to topic please. reg
Also as a moderator and myself representing this board, it is very good to see everybody responding and getting their oppinions out in the open, but please keep it clean everyone so that we can enjoy this board and keep good conversations going.
Thanks again, Lord Deprav. reg
Well Kranar, I will consider that a concession because you still have yet to prove anything via factual evidence. We can sit here and argue unsubstantiated ideas all day long and neither of us will change each other's views at all, or we can present concrete evidence supporting our claims and hope to make a few people think. You've done a good job of using college level words and probably tricked a few people into thinking that you 'won' that debate or whatever you want them to think, but as far as supporting anything you say with any sort of value, we haven't seen it.
Nietslaf reg
Who would ever flee to Mexico? I’d rather flee to the sewers than to go to that virus infected place of filth. As for McVeigh, he also defended his county. He was a decorated Gulf War Veteran; his rank was up to sergeant in a fast pace of time. He carried out a military attack on the government. Do you really think McVeighs attack was and different from the attacks of the government on Randy Weaver in Ruby Ridge, Idaho or David Koresh in Waco, Texas?
-Pirub reg
I don't like holding people's hand in an arguement, but I think I've done quite a good job of establishing my position that:
A) Human arrogance is responsible for the deaths of millions of people and will continue to cause millions of more deaths
B) For many it's never a problem until it finally slaps you in the face.
C) Life is a right, not a priveledge.
That's as much as I can do to hold your hand and let you know what I'm actually talking about. If you want to say I'm wrong because I know nothing and I'm Canadian, to each their own. If you ever engage in formal debate however it's not a matter of "convincing" the other person who's right and who's wrong, that's absurd and heck it's ARROGANCE <cackle>. Debates help to understand other points of view, and the better of a debater you're up against, the more you learn.
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg
I've been gone for a day and just read the whole thread so bear with me. On the issue of Mcveigh, to say he is a martyr, you either don't know what a martyr is or you are just stupid. A martyr is someone who SACRIFICES their life for either religion or some sort of principal. He was arrested and put down, I doubt he would've done so voluntarily if he hadn't been caught.
Kranar, I totally agree with you on the issue of human arrogance.
Pirub, do they have broadband in your trailer park or are you on a dial-up connection?
Personally, the only problem I have with mcveigh is he killed the wrong people. Why couldn't he go after someone who was actually responsible. And in those 168 people, nearly 30 were children. That infuriates me to no end.
For anyone who thinks death by lethal injection was too harsh, in pakistan a man murdered around 100 young boys, dismembered them, and stuck their parts in vats of acid. When he was caught, he was sentenced to be dismembered, and stuck in acid. For someone who took 168 lives, I don't think a painless death was too harsh.
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Man of many opinions reg
Obviously you're a retard and have no idea what you're talking about. From day one McVeigh intended to be caught. From leaving his name on the hotel where he stayed in Kentucky(Where he rented the Rider Truck), to speeding on the highway, to carrying a gun on him when the officer pulled him over, to wearing an anti-government shirt, to walking into several stores and getting taped by surveillance cameras. Need I say more? Obviously if you knew anything about the case you could speak.
1. Martyr- One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle.
Lets examine this. Did he make a sacrifice? Yes, his life. Did he further a cause? Yes, his anti government belief. Obviously you know little to nothing on the subject of McVeigh and you should stop embarrassing yourself further.
‘Pirub, do they have broadband in your trailer park or are you on a dial-up connection?’ Are you a retard? Yes. Have I ever been within 100 miles of a trailer park? No. Although it’s obvious you live in one.
-Pirub reg
Wow.
Ok. Where to start.
Yes I visited a max security prison, it "used" to be a federal prison and now is a max state prison. Sorry for the screw up there.
After speaking at length with Kranar through IM's about his "Life is a right, not a privelage" theory. I have come to agree with many points of that.
However, I will say war is war. Inoccents will, may, and have died. Its a fact of life. Germany killed millions of innocents, the US killed their share, as did Italy, Great Britain, and France. I don't think you can single the US out just because we dropped the atomic bomb. Infact more people died in the fire bombings of Tokyo then in one atomic blast.(Thanks History Channel!).
All in all WWII is done and over. My grandfather fought in it over against the Japanese. (Side note: Please stop reffering to them as "Japs". I personally consider it a racial slur and it will be removed.) I still have some of the pictures of him fighting along with a Japanese flag and other items from the war. He landed on Iwo Jima, did Guattel Canal twice, and also landed somewhere else.
I asked him if he thought he was going to die. His answer was "Every time I landed on shore I thought today would be my day. But when the guy next to me got hit, I knew it was one less bullet that had my name on it."
He told me that what caused the US to attack back so hard was more then just elimiation of the Japanese. It was pride, and honor. The US had their stuck up attitudes and pride got the best of the US. We were isolationists and we didn't want to deal with outside problems. My grandfather's words were, "How dare they attack us. They drug us into this war, so be it. Let them pay."
How dare they? My first response would be Holy crap!! They are attacking!. My first gut reaction would be fear, and that of trying to survive. Not anger and rage that would drive me to pick up a gun and start mowing people down.
It was a different mindset, and a different time. It was a time when the US thought itself to be invincible and its what I believe led us up to the huge failures in Korea and Veitnam.
Now the US realizes that soldier casualties are very bad for the morale of the nation. We sit around and tout how powerful we are, but we fight war where we don't have to get our hands dirty. Push a button, launch a few thousand misles. Kill a few thousand enemies. Be home intime for dinner.
Back to the reason you can't single out the US for dropping the atomic bomb. There were more teams then just the US team working on making the atomic bomb. It would eventually have been made by someone else and it would have been used by someone else. Someone had to use it once in war to find out just how bad using it was. Someone had to make that mistake and it just so happened it was the US.
Many of you know that scholars around the globe research WWII. they are contantly asking how many people would have died if the US invaded mainland Japan? Innocents would have died as well. How many innocents would have died? More then 300k? The truth is we don't know and we never will. So you can say what the US did was wrong and immorale, but what would we be saying today if the US had invaded, and beaten the Japanese on their own soil?
A couple of people have stated that you would defend your country with great vigor. Well would you do the same if you attacked someone and then you were beaten and they invaded your homeland? I think I would. So now you are fighting against farmers with pitchforks and nobody can be considered just civilian.
Just as an aside. I went to see Pearl Harbor, and one of the ships that was sunk was the Oklahoma.I read an article the otherday that had a man who flew in the attack against Pearl Harbor. He later went on to fly another bombing run against US ships, he said, " I knew the US would win the war when I saw with my own eyes the Oklahoma on a later bombing mission. They had resurected her, repaired her, and it was a symbol of the American people's will. It could not be destroyed."
One of the things in Kranar's and my discussions I asked him about self defense. I personally think that if a man pulls out a 9mm puts it to my head and says I am going to kill you. If I happen to have a 9mm of my own I think its in my right to decide to take his life or as Kranar advised disable him. I personally would kill him. Why? I don't want him to fall to the ground with some minor wound, stand up, and blow my head off.
In the case of Tim had he shot 168 people and the cops arrived, there is a good chance Tim would have been shot and killed at the scene. Saving the tax payers 100m dollars and the country the saga of this terrorist.
He didn't shoot 168 people. He blew them up or crushed them with falling concrete from the building. He didn't phone the FBI or police and tell them Hello my name is Tim I am the one who blew up the building, come pick me up at my house. In my eyes he chose a cowardly attack and to cover up this cowardly act he demands to die. Why? Because of the media frenzy to follow and him knowing that people around the world will remember his name, his acts, and how his sentance was carried out.
Maybe the US should go buy an island and ship all the lifers there. It sure would save on the hassle of trying to find prison space and the hassle of deciding who gets the death penalty. On an island maybe the inmates would be self cleaning.
Buckwheet
Wow what a ramble.
Back to the storm shelter for me. reg
Did the FBI call up the branch davidians in Waco and tell them they were going to die? Did they say, hey we’re the FBI we’re going to set your compound on fire now, ok? Obviously not, and you as Fralcon know nothing about the McVeigh case.
Show me some evidence that will lead you to conclude that McVeigh never intended to be caught, or are you just making it up? Obviously he blew up the building in Oklahoma and he lived in New York. How could he go to his house and call them up since he didn’t even get to his house. From the first day he as well as Terry Nichols knew they were going to get caught. Nichols got scared at the end and McVeigh had to yell at him to help.
-Pirub reg
Did I ever claim to know anything about his case?
No.
I just don't think he did anything to turn himself in. He just acted dumb and that led him to get caught.
I used the house as an example. I am sure there was a phone at one of the stores he entered.
Generally after a terrorist attack someone calls to claim responsibility. I don't think he did. Which leads me to think he never was going to.
Buckwheet
reg
I would like to clarify that although I did use the U.S as an example that human arrogance kills millions, they aren't the only country that does it. I used them as an example of bias and pointed to the fact that when one person commits an act that kills a significant amount of people it can be called an act of terrorism and a horrible crime, but when someone else does it on a scale 100 times greater, it's called war and seen as heroic and great.
I believe Tim Mcveigh will be a martyr, and the media made him one. People in the future will want to follow his footsteps and do what he did just like we still have little kiddies going to school with guns trying to recreate the Columbine incident.
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg
I think the Atomic bomb saved lives. Ended the war very fast. We used such overwhelming force. Didn't have to sacrifice our troops like Vietnam.
::Kaboom!::
We give up!
As for the traitor McVeigh. Eye for and Eye. He got off easy.
Who is a Matyr for? Serial killers? Child molestors? Murderers? He could have done something else, then kill children and innocents. Drive the trunk into the side of the white house. Hit a military installation. He researched it. Knew he was going to kill children and innocents. He is a sick sick man. Think you would have a different opinion if it was your kids in that building being buried to death. I know between right and wrong. What he did was wrong.
You think our government is so bad? Go live elsewhere for a while. You will realize. US is the place to be.
edge reg
Buckwheet, if you don't know about the case then don't come up with assumptions.
I'd rather stay here, but thanks for the recommendation.
-Pirub reg
The bottom line is that the atomic bomb saved American lives. If it would have cost every Japanese life to save 1 American life, I'd say it would be well worth it. It makes no difference if we upset countries like Canada by dropping the bomb. What are they gonna do, send the mounted police after us? The world is a kill or get killed place both in and out of politics. Everything a country does is ultimately for it's own good; if don't you think this, you obviously don't think very well.
And just because I like to see numbers out there, during the Vietnam war, North Vietnam lost 1,500,000 lives to the 55,000 American lives. Obviously I'd consider that a horrible loss because of how I value the two, but statistically speaking we didn't do as bad as everyone thinks. Most of those lives were lost because of the horrible micromanaging of democratic jerk offs like Macnamara. Had the military been given full authority of that war, we'd probably gone to war with China and Russia and too.
Nietslaf reg
It's no secret Vietnam was lost because of dirty hippies and gay liberals.
-Pirub reg
Pirub, whats the point of saying to someone you know nothing about this case? If they have an oppinion on it they obviously know something about the case. Maybe they have followed it day to day or just read a news article here and there, but they still can have an oppinion on it. I started this discussion is he a martyr hoping to see some oppinions.
My appologies Buckwheer for referring them as Japs, but thats what alot of people referred to them as during this time people. My Uncle and my step grandfather both still call people of that time era by that name. I was not referring to people of today. reg
quote:
He didn't shoot 168 people. He blew them up or crushed them with falling concrete from the building. He didn't phone the FBI or police and tell them Hello my name is Tim I am the one who blew up the building, come pick me up at my house. In my eyes he chose a cowardly attack and to cover up this cowardly act he demands to die. Why? Because of the media frenzy to follow and him knowing that people around the world will remember his name, his acts, and how his sentance was carried out.
Obviously if it was his opinion he would have said, 'personally' as he did
‘I personally think that if a man pulls out’
‘I personally would kill him’
‘I personally consider it a racial slur and it will be removed’
Notice the trend? Notice he never mentioned personally in his ranting about McVeigh and the McVeigh case. I believe he was trying to state fact, and yes he is wrong.
-Pirub reg
quote:
Originally posted by Pirub9:
Obviously if it was his opinion he would have said, 'personally' as he did
‘I personally think that if a man pulls out’
‘I personally would kill him’
‘I personally consider it a racial slur and it will be removed’
Notice the trend? Notice he never mentioned personally in his ranting about McVeigh and the McVeigh case. I believe he was trying to state fact, and yes he is wrong.-Pirub
Did he call the police and tell them "I did this"?
I also said In my eyes this is what he did. Then I went on to explain why I felt this way.
In my eyes means how I see what he did.
Not how anyone else should, shouldn't, can't, or will look at him.
I thought my post was fairly clear that I am not saying how he should be looked at, just how I view him.
Buckwheet
reg
Then, as you did so many times prior, you should have put ‘I believe’, ‘I think’. I see no reason why you excluded it from your McVeigh rant and yet didn’t for the others. You never once mentioned that it’s your belief, you disguised it as fact.
-Pirub reg
Actually in a formal debate you never use the word I, I believe, in my opinion, I think ... ... It's ALWAYS assumed that if someone makes a statement, it's their opinion since humans have no objective way of knowing anything.
It's just like saying "You're travelling at 100 km/h", it's assumed that the person saying it is refering to his own frame of reference. Same logic applies to a debate.
When I refer to Mcveigh as being a martyr, I mean it in the strictest sense of the word. He did a horrible act of violence, but there will be others to follow his act because of how much the media has emphasized and glorified him. Just remember, Tim Mcveigh was never punished for his act. He died feeling he acted for the good of society, and there will be those to follow in his footsteps or who will believe in what he did as being justified.
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg
Well Kranar, since in his previous opinions he used ‘I believe’, and ‘I think’ quite readily it is believed that he also should have used it in his McVeigh statement. If he didn’t use ‘I believe’ or ‘I think’ at all, I would be fine with that.
‘Tim Mcveigh was never punished for his act.’
Was the government punished when they slaughtered 84 people in Waco and 2 innocent people in Ruby Ridge?
‘He died feeling he acted for the good of society, and there will be those to follow in his footsteps or who will believe in what he did as being justified.’
It’s true, there will be.
-Pirub reg
Timmy boy is(oh, sorry, was) a weak coward. He didn't want to be caught, but when he finally did, he tried to play it off like it was all some big plan. Why? So little impressionable kiddies can call him a martyr and inspire to blow up innocent people to make up for their small male reproductive organs...
reg
You show your true idiocy, Kellod.
‘didn't want to be caught, but when he finally did’
Yes a mere 90 minutes after the bombing, FINALLY!
‘he tried to play it off like it was all some big plan’
What are you talking about? He actually denied the existence of a John Doe #2 and denied that he got help from Usama Bin Laden. Yes, he made the fertilizer bomb alone with Terry Nichols.
‘So little impressionable kiddies can call him a martyr and inspire to blow up innocent people to make up for their small male reproductive organs...’
Is this supposed to be an insult to anyone? Obviously you’re not very smart.
-Pirub reg
<< Was the government punished when they slaughtered 84 people in Waco and 2 innocent people in Ruby Ridge? >>
No, no they weren't. They burned people alive and it's concidered justified. But Pirub do you feel this allows Mcveigh to do the exact same thing?
Now someone else will follow in Mcveigh's step (don't fool yourself into thinking someone won't, it almost always happens), and then the government will kill that person and the cycle will continue until both sides can get over themselves are realize they are both wrong and commited acts of terrorism.
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg
Obviously that kellod character is a big idiot. How can he not think a person who blows up innocent people is a martyr. What an idiot kellod is.
And as all of us smart people know, there was no plan. He just magically had this bomb in his hands 2 seconds before it was placed, so the whole thing only lasted 90 minutes. That fool kellod, what was he thinking.
'lood
good effort, bad execution...
reg
Yes, McVeigh’s actions were justified. The nature of the beast is such that something drastic has to be done to get their attention. As I said previously, I would rather have seen him assassinate such people as Lon Horiuchi, and Janet Reno. Later McVeigh came to this realization that he should have gone the assassination route instead of the Turner Diaries route which calls for the bombing of a Federal Building. The bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal building was a necessary attack on an ever so expanding Government. Although people may have lost their lives, it is a just consequence of getting the attention of the Government.
-Pirub
[This message has been edited by Pirub9 (edited 06-14-2001).] reg
You obviously know nothing about the case, Kelood. Further embarrassment of yourself is not necessary.
-Pirub reg
A quick side bar to all of our posters.
When mean looking men with no hair offer you a pamphlet, do yourself a favor and say "No thanks".
'lood
reg
You over used the "you don't know what your talking about" defense awhile back pirub... reg
Why would you call it a defense when it’s obviously the truth? You don’t know any facts to the case so you make up some stupid lies which are totally false.
-Pirub reg
From day one of his plan he didn't want to get caught. And when he FINALLY did get caught (finally is an adverb, meaning, at the end, or the conclusion), he tries to make it out like he wanted from day one to get caught. Which is not the case.
If, in his plan, he wished to buy a red shirt, he wouldnt drive 50 miles out of his way , buy a _white_ shirt, drive another 50 miles out of his way and buy red dye, and dye the shirt. -- He'd go buy a red shirt.
If he really wanted to get caught, he'd a stood at the crime scene and waved his hands jumping up and down.
Or if he had some message to get out, he'd have sent something to a newspaper or other means of communication.
[sarcarm]
He seemed to accomplish his goals, that ever expanding government stopped dead in its tracks after that one bombing...
[/sarcasm]
'lood
reg
in one breathe you talk about other people not knowing facts or being stupid, and in another you say things like
"It's no secret Vietnam was lost because of dirty hippies and gay liberals."
and gems like
"That’s what you get from years of inbreeding and infiltration of filthy Mexicans and Arabs"
reg
'If, in his plan, he wished to buy a red shirt, he wouldnt drive 50 miles out of his way , buy a _white_ shirt'
Yes we all know you're psychic.
Yes we all know you're psychic.
Obviously my two statements are true, do you dare to differ? reg
God lives in the sun.
Care to differ?
Same type of statements.
Im not Miss. Cleo, its called logic pirub.
If theres an apple 3 inches away, and one 15 miles down the road, the same apple. Most people of sound mind would go for the one 3 inches away.
Its just common sense. The key here is sound mind.
Why would someone go to the effort of planting things that make it look like he just messed up and was dumb. That makes no sense. Now if your talking about the same type of thing where suicidal people really don't want to die, that subconsiously he wanted to get caught, thats a whole diferent ball game, and i can believe that. But thats not martyrism.
reg
Obviously it was a typo and I was referring to these
"It's no secret Vietnam was lost because of dirty hippies and gay liberals."
"That’s what you get from years of inbreeding and infiltration of filthy Mexicans and Arabs"
"It's no secret Vietnam was lost because of dirty hippies and gay liberals."
"That’s what you get from years of inbreeding and infiltration of filthy Mexicans and Arabs"
‘That makes no sense’
It makes plenty of sense, he didn’t make it look like he messed up. Obviously he wanted them to catch him, the more news the better. Do you understand if he got caught right away there wouldn’t be any ‘leads’ or ‘tracking’ or ‘the FBI today announced they think they know who the bomber is’. It would plain simple, ‘the bomber gave himself up today and we took him into custody’. It’s obvious he wanted press coverage to get his message out and that is the most logical way to get it. Leave enough clues to get caught but for it to be a chase.
-Pirub reg
Score one for Pirub.
Nietslaf reg
Ok, ill use one of your lines against you.
yes the BIG 90 MINUTE chase!!!
And about the mexican and arab statements,
"God lives in the sun" is the exact same type of thing.
Outrageous statements that can neither be justified or disproven by factual evidence.
Even if he was caught right away, there still would be the same type of press. There still would be a trial.
And if you dont think so, then use my second option. Go the unibomber-esque route. If he wanted to get out a message, their are much better ways of doing it then leaving your name at a hotel and walking past a few security camera's...
'lood
no im not mexican...
reg
Something about technology blah blah blah bane of america or something like that. The problem with ted was the damn thing was too long. 50 words 64 font bolded and underlined would of had a better effect reg
Pirub, it is my opinion that you personify almost all the evils of society. You are racist. You are extremely rude. You are a BITTER individual. Your comments towards people... they make me want to retch... I hope, for the love of g-d, that you never, ever are in a position of power. I also hope that you will never be allowed to breed, or raise children. One question, how old are you?
G
(Imagine this could be the person who is your childs teacher)
reg
Age is irrelevant. I don't care about your opinions, they're worthless to me.
-Pirub reg
And as to timmy being a household name. Yeah, for now. Nobody will forget what happened , the bombing, but they will, if they even knew before, forget _why_ he did
it.
it.
So he failed.
They only people who will remember that kind of stuff are government hating people obsessed with it.
reg
Our generation will know what happened and that's all that matters. When you try to send a message you don’t send it for people in future, but for the present. What happens now will ultimately decide what happens in the future.
-Pirub reg
quote:
When you try to send a message you don’t send it for people in future
which is why they all fail. every single one.
forgetable.
Just a little pebble in the road of the whole scheme of things.
reg
Well since McVeigh's style of attack has not been commited prior to his you're wrong. State one attack such as McVeighs that has failed.
-Pirub
[This message has been edited by Pirub9 (edited 06-14-2001).] reg
im talking in general, acts of terrorism. reg
Hey guys.
The debate was going great. Then personal mudflinging started.
Lets remember to keep it civil.
First warning. I enjoyed this debate up untill say the last dozen posts. Other members are expressing strong concern over where this is heading.
Please don't make me close this thread.
I think we all can act responsibly and be treated with mutual respect.
Buckwheet reg
quote:
Originally posted by Pirub9:
Well general acts of terrorism are excluded from this. This is not only an American Terrorist but it is the biggest terrorist attack in the US history. You cannot judge this attack by using lesser attacks that were carried out by filthy arabs.-Pirub
Still just a pebble. I bigger one, but that hardly matters.
reg
Well I simply scrolled down the last posts until I got to Buckwheets. Just figured it wasn't worth my time reading. Pirub, once again they must know something if they are responding. I do agree with you that he should have assassinned those two people. One he would not have gotten death. Murderer by assassination is not a death penalty option besided in California and one of the other states like Maine or Montana or something like that. Well actually thats not fully true, I meant towards a person like Reno its not death penalty result. I do not think we will see anymore copy cats for a while though. At least not for another 10 or 20 years. The government is going to be keeping a close eye on all of their actions in result of this. reg
I've deleted every post that has a racial slur in it, if you can't post without the racial slurs, don't post at all.
------------------
Man of many opinions reg