The Players Corner Archive

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Blah blah blah... personal stuff, you know how it is... though I am leaving in some personal stuff so that you can see how the discussion came about.

Caels says:
I have given up on religion for the most part... I still believe in most of the same things, but I do not follow any of it as much as I did in AIT.

Caels says:
I quit telling people also, because then everyone would always wanna know if I practice magick and cast spells and all kinds of stupid questions that have nothing to do with the religion itself.

Caels says:
All people hear when I say Wicca is witchcraft. Which is not the religion but an aspect of it.

Michelle says:
That's o.k. they think we can move to Utah and my husband can have 5 more wives for his herem.

Caels says:
I remember those rumors... I heard them all the time when I would tell someone about you.

Caels says:
I corrected the issue of course

Caels says:
Now when I talk about you though, which is rare lately, it is always just about the good things I remember. All the fun we used to have and blah blah blah. You were the one that got away, and that is how I express it to others.

Michelle says:
I needed to get away. I would've been of no real good to anyone in that state.

Caels says:
Can you believe that I don't talk to anyone anymore? I don't even play around like I used to... I try and hide in the shadows now and prefer to stay by myself.

Michelle says:
You were frequently in the shadows by yourself. Remember? i would be hiding too though if I were in your shoes with the unit you have.

Caels says:
I tried to talk to people and make friends when I first got here, but they said, and this is exact words, "why do you talk to us? we don't give a [obscenity]."

Michelle says:
Some people are just stupid and rude, but then again you probably already knew that. It's a little better in the civilian world. I can't wait to leave this area and go back to my husband's hometown.

Caels says:
why? I thought you wanted to be away from him

Michelle says:
Not my ex, my current husband. I hate being away from him. The hardest part of vacation was that I couldn't ride horses so he went on all day rides and stuff and I had to stay and go on hikes or whatever else I wanted, so long as my feet stayed on the ground. I don't deserve him really, he's too good for me.

Caels says:
bull [crap]... I have heard those comments before. You said them about me and about him. Just accept what you have and love him with all your heart. That is more than I have.

Michelle says:
It's your negitivity that turns people away from you. I have really tried to be a good friend to you. I'm sorry about

Michelle says:
Alabama, but you knew what you were doing too. I felt deeply for you. I don't know what may have happened, but I know I'm where I'm supposed to be and that my husband is the one and only one for me.

Caels says:
You are a good friend. I did not mean that to be negative. Hell, most of the time I am the only one smiling. I am just a bit sour as of the events of this past week and the fact that I am still sitting here and typing this dumb essay

Caels says:
Besides, I have no reason to look for anyone. I cannot really say that I am lonely now, I got used to it again and it does not bother me.

Caels says:
Maybe once I get a car and start getting around I will look for someone else but until then I am fine

Michelle says:
I understand, but I never want you to think that I intentionally misled you or anything. I was wrong to do what I did, but my feelings were genuine just the same. I would've stayed with you, but what would be the point of starting a relationship with irreconcilable differences

Michelle says:
If there's one thing I learned with my ex, it's what I do and don't want in a spouse and what to look for. I was very sure before I remarried.

Caels says:
I never saw them as such, you just too thick headed. As I recall we actually enjoyed discussing our differences

Michelle says:
Yes, but the most important thing to me is to have my husband and children sealed to me for eternity and that couldn't have happened. When I tried to go without religion, my life was a mess. You saw it. It's who I am and yes, I'm too thick headed to give it up or compromise. Especially when it effects my future children.

Caels says:
So your religion dictates that you can only be sealed in a same religion marriage?

Caels says:
Meaning that any other marriage is worthless?

Michelle says:
No, not worthless, just not eternal.

Caels says:
That seems kind of high and mighty... a trait that religions should not possess

Michelle says:
Civil marriages are until death, then they're over. In the temple, under proper athority, and provided both parties remain worthy, they are for all eternity. We believe that people and families continue to progress after death. It's still committment and work though.

Caels says:
So your religion believes that I cannot be married to you eternally simply because I chose a different path... that seems overly prejudiced especially considering that marriages within my religion are eternal as well, provided the rules set forth by the couple

Caels says:
I don't know... it seems pointless to wonder about it now. Though I admire your dedication to your religion, I cannot accept a religion that denies all others. that is why I left Baptist, because they thought they were the only path to God.

Michelle says:
It has nothing to do with being high and mighty, it has to do with humility and committment. How can 2 people on such opposite paths truly have a unified family? If I had a Wiccan eternal marriage, I'm sure it would not be accepted by wiccans because I am not wiccan, nor do i follow their practices. We believe that good people of all faiths will be in heaven. I personally just feel that

Michelle says:
dual religion marriages are much more difficult. No matter what 2 religions we're talking about.

Michelle says:
If a Catholic man wants a good Catholic family, would it make sense for him to marry a Baptist?

Caels says:
I disagree with that as well because they both believe the other is wrong, so no they cannot. But Wicca is not like that, and from your claims, neither is your religion, so there is where I do not see the problem. Our beliefs are not what is differing, it is the methods in which we praise the Almighty.

Caels says:
And the method does not matter in the end, only that it is done to the best of either's ability

Caels says:
I refuse to believe that the One would allow such segregation among his/her children.

Caels says:
That would show favoritism between religions, and that is what causes holy wars

Michelle says:
yes, but we do believe in different entities as being the Almighty. For unity in the family and home, it would help if both people at least could agree on who the Almighty is.

Caels says:
How is your entity any different than mine?

Caels says:
He/She created the world, created us, loves all of us, and wishes all of us to join Him/Her in the end... An entity is only an idea, that someone thought up and said, "Hey you know what? I'll bet that would be a good idea to pin on our concept of God!" The source behind that entity is the same for all

Michelle says:
It is mostly a personal choice, not a doctrinal choice. There are plenty of Mormons married to people of all different religions. I made my decisions and they make theirs. No one is better than the other, just different and each must decide what's best for them. As for our entities, I believe in God , Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. 3 distinct personages

Caels says:
And you think that is any different than my trinity? The trinity is much much older than any christian religion... Christians adapted most of their beliefs from pagan religion. all they did was give one entity three different names, and divided up aspects of that single entity into those 3.

Caels says:
Same thing with just a different label

Michelle says:
That's where mormonism differs from the rest of the Christian world. God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are not three aspects of the same entity, but 3 different beings.

Caels says:
Explain... I am always interested

Michelle says:
Just what I said. God is the head, Christ assisted him in creation and was the savior, the holy spirit is a spirit so he can be in our hearts for comfort, etc. He can be in more than one place because he has no body. We believe that God and Jesus are perfected, glorified, men with physical form.

Caels says:
So in essence, the Spirit is still part of God? though it may be a detachment that dwells within the hearts?

Caels says:
And if you believe that Christ was His only begotten son, then Christ also becomes a part of God.

Michelle says:
Here's a tough one to swallow. There is no beginning to eternity as well as no end. The eternal families are so important because we do actually believe that God has a father as well, who would be his God, and so on and so forth. The 3 personages being one to us means one purpose. If you asked one a question, they would tell you the same thing as the others, though the other 2 may not be there

Michelle says:
A part of God yes, just like each of us, but his own person.

Michelle says:
Eve was created from Adam's ribs, does that mean she was not her own person once created?

Caels says:
hmmm... if God has a God, then who will become our next God? Jesus? or do you already consider him a God

Caels says:
I do not believe that eve was of adam's ribs

Caels says:
BTW... the above question was not meant as an insult or incredulousness... It was a serious question

Michelle says:
God will remain our God for eternity as his God will remain his God for eternity. Just because we continue to progress after death, does not mean those who are above us will stop progessing. It is continuous. No matter how glorified God becomes, his God will continue to progress as well.

Caels says:
You cannot be more perfect than perfect... that statement makes it seem that God is indeed not perfect, and thus causing another dispute

Caels says:
Perfect means flawless, in every way. If God has room to grow and progress then he cannot be perfect

Michelle says:
It has nothing to do with perfection, but progression. Intelligence is the glory of God, and it is always increasing. It has nothing to do with sin or flaw. It is nearly impossible for the human mind to comprehend.

Caels says:
Contrary, the human mind cannot fathom such, since God is believed to know all and know all that will be, thus his intelligence would never increase

Michelle says:
We do believe that God is sinless, but his glory will keep progressing /increasing eternally. Why should it stop.

Caels says:
But you also said that God and his God are perfect... that is why I commented on the perfection thing

Michelle says:
There is nothing saying God can't know more than us.

Caels says:
what?

Caels says:
I said that he does know all

Michelle says:
But just because the human mind is not ready to comprehend something doesn't mean

Michelle says:
God can't.

Caels says:
Or do you mean that God knows only as much as we do, humans as a whole, but then he learns everything as we do, encompassing all knowledge that is known yet not foreseeing the knowledge to come?

Caels says:
I know that may have been a confusing question...

Michelle says:
There are many wonders that we will never understand in this life. That is why we continue to progress after death. No one knows for sure the ins and outs of godhood, I don't believe we're meant to sit around and wonder about it. We need to do the things we already know to do. I believe God knows everything we know and eons more.

Caels says:
Okay, that I can agree with.

Caels says:
Do you mind if I post this discussion in a forum for open debate?

Michelle says:
The point is, that eternal life and progression are keys in my religion. Families are the main focus of our religion.

Caels says:
I find this very enlightening and intriguing

Michelle says:
You may do what you want, but I warn you that many people say horrible things about Mormons because they simply believe it to be a cult. I don't do the debates because they always turn into arguments with people telling me I'm going to hell and I really don't think I'm the one you want to explain these things. Many Mormons won't attempt to explain this to anyone because of the intense ridicule

Michelle says:
and contention that others bring to it. Most people are not ready to hear anything different from the norm.

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Any other ideas on religion out there?

------------------
Caels Onae'Rae
AIM : Caels OnaeRae
MSN : Caels_Onaerae@hotmail.com
ICQ : 91446467
Yahoo!: caels_onaerae reg

Catholics can mean more then one religon...such as Othodox and Roman Catholic.

Both are Catholic, both acknowledge eachother, and I am in the process of determining if they will marry with eachother.

Buckwheet reg

Read the Left Behind series.

Its all about the rapture and "end times".

I am in no way a "religous" person, however it shocked, amazed, and open my mind to thoughts and ideas.

Buckwheet reg

Don't get me started on that load of hypocrisy.

"Following these faiths based on mythological figures, ensures the destruction of ones inner being."
~Dogma

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Have you ever heard of laughing death? It's a disease that causes the brain to rot and deteriorate until the person dies. Now that I think about it, it's not that funny. reg

I've visited the Mormon Church in Utah, and found much of the basic concepts to be very gentle, healthy, and thoughtful. I disagree with their "truths," but the concepts themselves are easy to agree with.

I've lived with Wiccans (no, not "witches" dangit!) who embraced almost the exact same concepts as Mormons and so many other religions embrace. The main difference I noticed, was that the Wiccans never claimed that their "truths" were the only correct ones.

Truths like there is a trinity, the father, son, and spirit, each a separate entity (breaking the law, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me.") Mormonism, if they worship three separate beings, is not Christianity. If they embrace the father/son/spirit as separate parts of one being, then this would be the basic premise of Christianity. Either they are Christians or they are not. Judging from Michelle's insistence, it doesn't sound as if they are.

Jews (not Jews for Jesus, which is considered a non-religion by Jews) believe in God. Period. They pray to God, they worship God, they thank God, they beseech God. God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Father of our Fathers, etc. God is male, god has no female counterpart, and Eve sinned, causing Adam to be cast out of Paradise. Whether Jesus exists or not is completely irrelevant to Jews. It's not that they don't believe in him, but rather that it doesn't matter if he did or not. It doesn't change the fact that God is God. I'd imagine we (as a religious culture and race of people) give Jesus a healthy dose of respect. Afterall, he was one of us, and a gifted Rabbi according to the texts. But we no more worship or pray to him than we do to Moses, who delivered unto the heathens and the faithful the Laws of the world - the Ten Commandments. Far as I'm concerned, anyone who can get a burning bush to etch hebrew letters into rock and carry two fairly hefty stone tablets down a mountain, AND part a sea to bring an entire country's worth of people across it's got my vote for "Someone worth praying to."

As it is, I don't pray to anyone in particular. I don't really feel I need to. Assuming God/dess knows all, well then s/he knows what I'm thinking and can extract whatever prayer s/he needs/wants at any given moment without my having to give it a second thought.

::shrugs::
reg

For muslims, we like the jews and the christians believe in the same God, however we are MUCH closer to judaism than christianity. We acknowledge both Jesus and Moses as profits of God however Jesus is not the son of God and Jesus did not die on the cross, and that's where we differ from christians the most. We also do not worship the profit, we worship God and only God.

Our religion teaches that the flaw with Judaism is that the Jews believed that they and only they were the sacred people who would be allowed to enter heaven. Anyone not born to a Jew isn't sacred for the LONGEST time if you didn't have "jewish" blood in you, you couldn't convert. Religion was never supposed to be only for a select few, religion should have been universal which was why God sent Jesus.

Our religion teaches that God put Jesus on earth with only a mother (Virgin Mary) and no father and that when he was hunted down to be killed, God took Jesus off the face of the planet. Instead those who were jealous of Jesus and were hunting him down got so frustrated looking for him that they instead hunted down for any man who closely resembled Jesus and that's who died on the cross.

Afterwards their religion was slowly corrupted by the same people who were jealous of Christianity. Corrupted through the selling of wine, the eating of pork, the belief that Jesus is the son of God and that Jesus is God... Christianity was slowly becoming less of a religion and more of a corporation and the bible was changed hundreds of times to make christianity more of a money making religion. According to our religion those men succeeded in the corruption of christianity and that's what we believe is responsible for the thousands of sects.

Finally Islam was brought down to Mohammed as God's final word. He told Mohammed that if he failed to keep the word of God pure and uncorrupted that all of man would be damned so it was up to Mohammed himself to write the holy book for Islam.

One thing Christians and Muslims agree on is that before Judgement day, Jesus will return to earth. Islam teaches that Jesus never died, God wouldn't allow him to die, he was taken off the face of the planet but with the plan to return.

Would be really nice if most people judged islam based on the holy book rather than the hundreds of third world, poor and fed up countries that totally abuse the religion.

One can only hope...

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg

The similarities are very similar to Judaism, as you said Kranar. A correction though, not sure how you came to understand the idea of Jews being the "Chosen" people.

We were "Chosen," yes - to carry the Books of Moses out of the Desert, which we already did several thousands of years ago. We were chosen to bear the burden of mankind (which explains the perpetual jewish notion of guilt!), but to my recollection, there is no writing in jewish law or in our faith that decrees that we are the only ones worthy of heaven. In fact, we really don't spend much effort dwelling on heaven at all.

Our lives are supposed to be spent in prayer, or in preparation for the Sabbath, in celebration of the joy of God and of the life He gave us. We're not supposed to be doing this in order to go to heaven, we're supposed to be doing it "because them's the rules." I suppose you could consider heaven a perk, but certainly not an entitlement.

Again, I'm not sure how you came to hear of the idea that we think we have exclusive rights to heaven. God, according to the jewish faith, loves all his children. Not just the Jews.

Last note - what I was taught as a part of my upbringing is no reflection on my current beliefs, which I haven't really written about yet. I refer to myself as a Jew only because under the law of Judaism, if your mother is Jewish, you're Jewish. Mom is Jewish, so there it is

Roberta
reg

http://jcbf.asn.au/whatjew.htm

I'll summerize it as such:

<< I refer to myself as a Jew only because under the law of Judaism, if your mother is Jewish, you're Jewish. >>

That IS the principle of Judaism...

Christians define themselves through their belief. If you believe in Jesus Christ as the Lord and in the holy bible, then you're a christian. Muslim's define themselves through their practice. If you practice the disiplines of the Qu'ran, you're Muslim. This is not the case with Judaism. Jews are defined by birth as you stated. However, if one is not born to a Jewish mother, then they are not Jewish.

Now I know TODAY it is possible to convert to Judaism, but keep in mind this wasn't always the case and Judaism has been rewritten. This is not something the Jews deny but the problem is that God never sent any message to rewrite any aspect of the religion and as such the most modern Judaism is not a religion by God but a religion by man.

Islam came way before Judaism allowed for people to convert, and way after it was redefined. As far as muslims know, the Qu'ran is the same today as it was the day it was introduced on this planet.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg

'lood
ya suckered me in... reg

Also, the Talmud states that anyone who wants to embrace Judaism is required to be refused three times, and even then they are dissuaded. It's not because "we" don't want outsiders getting to heaven with us. It's because the original idea of judaism is a very difficult path to take and we wanna make sure they're up for it. It's a bit more complex than that, but that's the basic jist of it.

In addition, Judaism isn't just a religion. It is a culture, tradition, and an actual race of people, just as orientals are a race, and blacks are a race, and eskimos are a race. You can't "become" a race. You're born into it. And because according to the Talmud (the jewish book of law) we can't prove who the father is, but we can prove who the mother is, then it's the mother who determines whether or not you are jewish.

Now of course we have DNA testing, but that didn't exist when the laws were first written. But the laws are ancient, and will likely not change any time soon.

The tradition of judaism is wonderful, very joyful and a celebration of life. The religion leaves much to be desired in my opinion. But I gotta tell you, there is nothing quite as warm and cozy and loving as sitting down for Passover Seder and reciting the 4 questions, and the story of Moses and the Exodus, and eating charoses on matzoh after mom's chicken soup with matzoh balls.

And cupping your hands over the candles on friday night as you recite the blessing of light and the sabbath..feeling the heat of the flame enter your skin while you pray, it's very soothing, comforting.

And my parents said when they went to Israel they both wept, as has every Jew to ever visit the "Holy Land" from elsewhere. The emotion is not personal, it is cultural. It is engrained in our spirits from centuries past, and the emotion lives eternally throughout our entire race.

There is something very powerful in the spiritual and cultural aspect of being a Jew, that no holocaust, no slavery, no torture, no forced conversions can ever break.

And though I cannot embrace the religion, I still enjoy the "feeling" of being Jewish.

R
reg

That would be the atheist point of view.

<< And my parents said when they went to Israel they both wept, as has every Jew to ever visit the "Holy Land" from elsewhere. The emotion is not personal, it is cultural. It is engrained in our spirits from centuries past, and the emotion lives eternally throughout our entire race. >>

This is definitely true. Of course I personally can't share your enthusiasm for being jewish I certainly do respect it.

Islam does recognize both christianity and judaism as a religion of God and the same God, and it's important for our religion to be able to respect and acknowledge christians and jews as being holy even if we do disagree.

As I'm sure you know Kelood, for us being atheist is a one way ticket to hell. Heh, I don't make the rule but the justification for it is a strong one. Even if you're the nicest man in the world, if you can't acknowledge your creator and the being that gave you the opportunity to be who you are and the right to live, you pay dearly for it. Very rarely do you encounter an atheist who has taken the time to properly experience what the various religions have to say about humanity and the world we live in. Personally I think atheists are those who try to disprove God by saying there is no need for one and logically coming up with arguements to support how God isn't nessecary. We can answer questions using science now and have no more need for an all knowing God.

Personally I think that's an attempt to make reality based on logic rather than have logic based on reality.

Of course... it's unlawful to force anyone into becoming a muslim. If one so chooses to be atheist, then so be it. Islam is a personal religion between him/her self and God. However there are various warnings of when it's "too late" for an atheist to become a believer, the most obvious one being death, but there are several others.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 08-30-2001).] reg

As for the whole wicca/witch thing pretty much whatever you do anything you say your wicca someone is going to think your a witch.

I for one find the religion odd but I don't know the details so it wouldn't be all that fair to judge.

I guess you could say any religion that has limits I find stupid. Why can't I eat a big piece of bacon if I want to? that's so stupid I think.

Any as for people who say they are a religion yet don't follow the main rules or beliefs they just bug me.

Like a catholic who uses birth control or something I mean I so think birth control should be used but if its against a main rule of the religion why bother pretending?

Just some random thoughts...

Don' get me started on gays or politics!!!!

Mano reg

That's what we muslims believe led to the corruption of christianity.

People saying "Well you know... maybe it's okay to eat pork afterall, and drink alcohol, and you know what... if you are a christian and only go to church once or twice a year... big deal, welcome to the club!" Problem is this isn't the original purpose of christianity! If God says no, then you can't change the rules because doing so would contradict the entire purpose of the religion, which is to acknowledge the creator and respect what he has given to you.

Next thing you know there will be a sect of christianity that says "Doing crack ain't so bad... I think it's stupid that we aren't allowed to do crack. Hey everybody! Join my new sect of christianity where everyone is allowed to do crack because that's such a stupid rule and we don't need it anymore!"

It's happening with homosexuality, which originally is one of the worst sins. But hey some churches are allowing it and forming their own sects as if they have the power to change what is right and wrong.

Playing around with the word of God leads to further and further corruption. As far as muslims are concerned, feel free to do that if you want, however these issues aren't open for debate as to whether they are acceptable or not. We received the word the day God presented it to Mohammed, and that word will not change until God presents it to Jesus.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg

Eating pork or any other similar type animal was dangerous way back then. There was no refrigeration, no ice machines, and people lived in the desert. The pigs lived in their own filth, and to eat such an animal would be begging for disease and ultimately death. And so, the old testament tells us that we are not allowed to eat pork.

Not mixing meat and milk is another interesting law. The altruistic theory is that it is cruel to cook a calf in its mother's milk. The real deal is that food was served on wooden plates back then, china hadn't been invented yet and pottery was scarce. When meat and dairy mixed on a wooden plate (unvarnished, remember!), the meat turned the milk sour and invited bacterial growth, thus encouraging disease and bugs. And so, the law - no milk and meat in the same meal.

In Judaism, the Talmud says a man can divorce his wife by saying "I divorce you" three times. He can divorce his wife if he doesn't like her chicken soup. Honest to god, it's in the talmud, stated just like that! The reason behind this strange law is...

Any man who WOULD divorce his wife over her chicken soup shouldn't be married to her in the first place.

Just some interesting history behind some of the strange laws. reg

Exactly true, our religion has the same rule in regards to pork however when Islam was introduced a solution to meat and milk poured on the same plate was no longer a problem.

The problem is that jews don't see christianity as the next step forward in religion and jews and christians don't see Islam as the next step forward in religion.

Instead the next step forward has been for people to modify and rewrite their religion for their own reasons without getting any justification from God. Even muslims know that one day Jesus will return when corruption and faith in God becomes so apparant and leads to immoralization and muslims do recognize that when that day comes the FINAL step in religion will be introduced. Infact this corruption has much to do with the war with Israel.

Even muslims are human, and as I'm sure MANY of you can tell there are so many corrupt and immoral muslim countries run by dictatorship and even Islam as a religion can be corrupted by humans, but as far as scholars are concerned we're far away from total corruption. There have been no signs of the return of Jesus to this date.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg

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Have you ever heard of laughing death? It's a disease that causes the brain to rot and deteriorate until the person dies. Now that I think about it, it's not that funny. reg

C'mon, don't just post that we're all a bunch of nuts. Participate in the discussion!

R
reg

quote:

---

<< All religions are religions by man. >>
That would be the atheist point of view.

---

You assume too much Crayon.

Their is a very big diferenc between faith and religion.

Religion was created by man, for man.
Most subscribers of a certain religion believe theirs is better or more advanced than all others.

Why is that, exactly?

What is one mans "Gods word" over anothers?

Not to mention acts done on the back of religion in the history of the world is astounding.
Sword in one hand, bible in the other...

And even that really isn't the point.

'lood
reg

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

So by stating that no religion exists that is from God and stating that man created God, you can ONLY be stating that God doesn't exist. Doing otherwise would contradict what you said.

Now there are ONLY two ways to look at it. Those who are theists and believe in the existance of one or more Gods, and those who are atheistic, and believe in no Gods. There is no middle ground, if you think a God may infact exist but not sure, then you are theistic by the very definition of the word.

I don't see any assumption whatsoever, however you are free to correct me if possible.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg

Yes, they believe it's the truth.

<< Why is that, exactly? >>

Each will have their own justifications. I can only provide my own, and after reading the bible and the Qu'ran (I read the bible first), I found it astonishing how many contradictions the bible contains even in quotes from God himself and scientifically. For myself personally I found Islam to be more of a personal religion and not only does the Qu'ran make many incredible statements about the universe which have been observed over and over, but it even states things about the universe which to this date has not been proven scientifically. Formation of clouds, how iron was brought down the earth, evolution, the expansion of the universe, the development of man in the womb, the creation of the earth.

If I were to be christian, I would be accepting many of the fallacies and obvious mistruths that are present in the bible. I do respect the bible because it does provide moral values, but if I am to be part of a religion and believe in something to be TRUE, I would be unable to accept the bible as providing truth about this universe. And as for Judaism, my belief stands that to be an orthodox jew (and I don't believe in becoming part of a religion that is admittedly altered by man without the permission of God), I would be unable to because it states in the Torah that one must be born to a jewish mother in order to be a jew, and that Judaism is a religion by birth and not by practice. If it weren't for that, Islam wouldn't exist today, Jesus wouldn't have been born.

These are all simply my personal views.

<< Not to mention acts done on the back of religion in the history of the world is astounding. >>

Judge a religion by its book, not by its people.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg

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Now there are ONLY two ways to look at it. Those who are theists and believe in the existance of one or more Gods, and those who are atheistic, and believe in no Gods. There is no middle ground, if you think a God may infact exist but not sure, then you are theistic by the very definition of the word.

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are we forgetting agnosticism?

You are also forgetting a couple other meanings of the word religion.

"A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader"
[dictionary.com]

You can believe in the existance of God, or the possible existance of God, without subscribing to any religious dogma.

Though, at its heart, agnostism traditionally is the belief that we really can't determine whether their is a God or not. To what people do with that knowledge, really is a personal choice.

And furthermore, to say that we can know about god, or anything about a gods god, or whether or not he/she/it is perfect, or what he/she/it is, or how many of him, or anything, its totally undiscernable and irrelevant.

To base your whole life on a book written several thousand years ago by MEN who claim to know the word of God?

If you subscribe to a religion, thats great, do it 100% and totally. I might not agree with that choice, but i can understand it.

What i don't understand is the bandwagoners, the ones just hitching a ride on the heaven train. People who say they are baptist and have never opened up a bible, or couldn't even list all ten of the commandments.

If you are going to say your baptist, or mormon, or whatever, be 100% baptist, or mormon, or whatever. Because if what your religion says is true, you can't half-ass your way to God.

If you aren't going to follow it 100%, than don't label yourself as such.

But In my personal opinion, if there is a God, and he doesn't accept my resume of not killing anyone, not having a cruel heart, and just generally going through life, then I don't really care to much about him, and he can have his heaven and sit on it...!

'lood
"tpththphtphtptht!!!!!"

[This message has been edited by kelood (edited 08-30-2001).] reg

Sheesh.

I am gonna burn baby burn. Wooohoo! Think I can bring marshmellows?

I say believe what you want to. Some people thought the earth was round, some thought the earth was flat. In time everything got sorted out.

Why are we here? I don't care, I am, so let me get on with "my" life.

God to me is a idea. Its a idea that when mentioned makes people happy, or sad. It is a convience for others if they are making love, making war, or making trouble. (Oh god! Oh God!, Ooooooh God here they come, God damnit!)

Hope is a powerful thing, people need to latch onto something. People need something to give their life meaning. If some thing/one does that for you, great, I am happy. But I personally don't think I "need" a god. God isn't going to stop me from getting hit by a bus, not going to make me rich, not going to do anything unless I am deemed worthy of a miracle, and everyone knows the odds about that.

However like I told people earlier, people say if you die for God you become a martyr. Well I would rather die saying I believe in something we humans classify as God (In my opinion it is another word for hope) and take a bullet to the brain, instead of taking the .0000001% chance there actually is a god(s). Not to mention if you deny God exists well then you get to go to "hell".

There are too many inconsistances in any religion I am afraid to make me want to be apart of anyone more then the other.

By birth I am Roman Catholic, however I disagree with many of the churches "mandates" and as such don't like them very much.

But who knows. All I know is I am here to do what I want. I set my own course, and I help as many people as I can on my way to my goals.

If god wants to send a person like me to hell for being one of the most kind and generous people in his "flock" then so be it.

Buckwheet reg

People always say this but MOST of them when put on the spot can't do a thing to defend themselves. How many people here REALLY are knowledgable about the various world religions that they can make the claim that religion is so inconsistent and actually support it without saying "Well you know, everyone else says it is so I'll say it too."

Most people are SO BLATANTLY ignorant of religion, that's why they aren't religious, not because it's too hard, not because it's stressful, hell, not because they don't believe in it either. Not for any other reason than the fact that they never took it upon themselves to see what religion can offer them in terms of moral and self discipline.

So be it of course... one need only eat and sleep to live. But I will always stand by my opinion that to live life ignorant of religion or to ignore something so crucial to humanity is a unfortunate mistake.

It's reached a point with religion where people are so picky that they aren't concerned about what religion may or may not be of human interest. It's now just a question of "Well does this religion make me do anything that I don't want to like not eating pork or avoiding wine. If yes, skip it, if no, do I have to attend church more than once a year... how many days off work do I get..." so on... so on...

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 08-30-2001).] reg

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Originally posted by Fralcon:
My rock keeps away tigers. Do you see any tigers around here?

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Lisa I want to buy your rock....
reg

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It's reached a point with religion where people are so picky that they aren't concerned about what religion may or may not be of human interest. It's now just a question of "Well does this religion make me do anything that I don't want to like not eating pork or avoiding wine. If yes, skip it, if no, do I have to attend church more than once a year... how many days off work do I get..." so on... so on...

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I agree 100% there.

Any small bit of integrity/ good name that religion does have with me is totally ruined by people who abuse it and switch between them for all the wrong reasons. Its sad.

Though it could be a sign of one of the problems with religion. Hows the normal person suppose to choose ? Heaven or Hell, whats behind curtain number 3 johnny?

Won't find out till you die, might as well pick the better path...

As far as people speaking about religion without real knowledge(you can say that about most things though), i agree there too (i'm glad you said most, not all though )

Personally, ive never touched the Qu'ran, so i can't speak very much on it. I do have king james sitting right beside my bed though, and used to go to sunday school and church every week (untill i reached the age of reason )

I do know the general jist of it, and what people do in the name of it, and the things i don't like about it are the same things i don't like about every religion from ancient times till the present day.

'lood
reg

Definitely correct, although I don't see this a problem with religion, I see this as a problem, one that every human should think hard about before coming to a conclusion.

Deciding ones faith and belief if anything... should be something difficult and should be something to think long and hard about.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg

If God leaves it up to that, I certainly wouldn't worship him.

Might as well say your fated heaven or hell from birth.

This "believe it in your heart" "jesus came into my heart" stuff-- yeah, people say that about every religion.

Is there forty different jesus's or does he just like to play a cruel joke on ya?

Or maybe its just you WANT it to happen, you want a sign. People can justify just about anything they want, doesn't mean that justification makes any sense or not.

'lood
"flat world, hmmm, held up by a turtle ? seems reasonable to me, lets run with it..." reg

Conversations with God, by Neale D. Walsh.

The premise is, Neale's a writer, and is getting fed up with assorted things in his life. He's staring at this blank piece of paper waiting to start writing (I know that feeling!) and while he's waiting and thinking about the screwups he's made in his life, he asks, "God why does this stuff happen to me?"

Lo and behold, his writing hand begins moving over the page, and according to Neale, "God" answers him. The series is a written conversation Neale had with God. He answers the usual things, such as "Which is the true religion?" "Am I really going to heaven/hell?" and such, and then he moves on to morals and ethics, and politics and war, and his second book even gets pretty deep into world governments and education.

Fascinating reading. For those who are devoutly religious, consider it a fictional series that is just simply interesting. For those who are looking for a way they can "reach God" in a more personal sense, it's an eye-opener.

Warning: People who believe in the Holy Trinity will probably be offended by some of what is written. For those people, consider it a fantasy novel.

R
reg

Anyhow, as you read from my origianl post, I am Wiccan. I only chose Wicca because the system of beliefs are similar to my own. I believe in the powers of creation and love, yet there are ways I do not conform with Wicca also. I might be considered as without religion, but I follow what I believe in my heart, and to me the power of the heart will always be religion enough for me.

I do not practice magick, but I believe in it.

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Caels Onae'Rae
AIM : Caels OnaeRae
MSN : Caels_Onaerae@hotmail.com
ICQ : 91446467
Yahoo!: caels_onaerae reg

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Have you ever heard of laughing death? It's a disease that causes the brain to rot and deteriorate until the person dies. Now that I think about it, it's not that funny. reg

Also I have taken logic, and ethics classes to further support the discussions on the topic of religion. I don't claim to be a master, however we covered in detail all the religons spoke about here except Wiccan and the one a bunch of those movie stars belong to, oh and the cults. We didn't get into the cults of the new age.

Buckwheet

PS. We read parts of the bible, and the Qu-book. Also read some other "holy" books. I never found one I liked. But I aced the classes. reg

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Originaly posted by Buckwheet:
PS. We read parts of the bible, and the Qu-book. Also read some other "holy" books. I never found one I liked. But I aced the classes.

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Well, Wicca does not yet have a set "Holy" book, because there are too many different approaches to Wicca. Wicca allows different belief structures as long as the believer is faithful to the Wiccan rede, but otherwise there is no central head of church for us.

If you have any questions regarding Wicca, please ask and I'll be happy to post as much as I can on anything.

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Caels Onae'Rae
AIM : Caels OnaeRae
MSN : Caels_Onaerae@hotmail.com
ICQ : 91446467
Yahoo!: caels_onaerae reg

Agreed 'lood. Maybe some to consider me an aethiest, but I just lack in believe in God because of human reactions. I do not like readin the bible at all because I cannot in anyway relate to messages to my life. I guess one of the biggest things I have always thought about belief in God is that, if the world would go into total anarchy today, would you be willing to kill another just to eat and survive? I know I would. And I think the majority of people would, because it would be survival of the fittest.

Lord Deprav reg

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Have you ever heard of laughing death? It's a disease that causes the brain to rot and deteriorate until the person dies. Now that I think about it, it's not that funny. reg

Then came the jews, nope, theres only one, and he says do this or that for you are the chosen ones, but don't do these things.

BUT Christians couldn't settle down to one God, so they split him up into three Father, Son and Holy Spirit. With some help from Jesus, of course.

Then the Muslims, saying this has gotten corrupt, keep it pure, There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet. The Middle East has alays been a good place to birth a new religion. Of course every new one tries to wipe out the old ones.

Then there's Bhuddism, Hindu, Confucianism, and about 50 other sects of religion which are variants. IF there is one god, and he/she/it wishes to be worshipped in a particular way, do you think that perhaps there would only be one way to worship in the entire world?

I'm not going to go into the entire line of thought which got me to where I am today, and for those of you who find comfort in being your religion, I am all for it, THAT was it's true purpose. Before money and power got involved, there was comfort.

I believe we each live once, we live the best life we can and when we cease breathing and our hearts stop pumping we end. So make it a good life, enjoy that which doesn't impinge on others rights to enjoy their own lives.

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He who laughs last, didn't get the joke. reg

And after reading this thread, I just have one thing to say.... You people are so SMART!

Summer reg

Are you gonna buy into the same thing that your geocentric universe believing ancestors bought into? People as a collect group are very stupid. Progress is made by the few and adopted by the many, not the other way around. Believing in, let alone practicing a religion means you are either simple minded or insecure. Why would we have been given the gift of logic if through it, the Truth would seem an obvious lie?

Sonic reg

I don't know... you claim in one area of your arguement that on one hand progress is made by the few and adopted by the many, however on the other hand you say that religious people are simple minded and insecure.

I think you fail to realize that ALMOST ALL of the greatest scientists and mathematicians have specifically ACCEPTED, acknowledged and believe in the existance of God. From Einstein who has stated his belief in God many times, to Stephen Hawking, to Copernicus, to Kepler, to Kelvin, to Bohr, and then there's Newton, Leibniz, and Godel from the mathematical side of things... heck even Darwin believed in the existance of God (he was not atheist which is a common misconception about him).

I don't know if I'd like to call all those great historical figures and brains of today like Stephen Hawking simple minded or insecure.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 09-07-2001).] reg

I'm not saying that religion or belief in god is a BAD thing. Religion for the most part is a very good thing. It attempts to spread good morals and ethics to an ever increasing audience. No one can legitimately say that is a bad thing. I'll just be more satisfied with the method when it doesn't include trying to get people to dedicate a big part of themselves to something that has no real tangible value or purpose.

Sonic reg

Sonic

[This message has been edited by Alfador (edited 09-07-2001).] reg

Caels - The Mod. reg