The Players Corner Archive

WASHINGTON (AP) - The U.S. government issued duties today averaging 29 percent on a popular type of Canadian lumber to protect American jobs and retaliate for what it says are unfair trade practices. Critics say the move could add $1,500 to the price of a new U.S. home and devastate the Canadian lumber industry, which already has suffered mill closings and job losses from U.S. tariffs imposed last year. It's the second time in a month that the Bush administration has sought to impose tariffs to help a struggling U.S. industry. Earlier it imposed tariffs on steel imports.
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It's nice to have a president who doesn't bend over and take it from everyone in the world just because the average citizen is too stupid to realize that he's a moron and is ruining the country. We don't need to import, we need to export.

Sonic reg

Pretty much everything else we have here in the USA is either manufactured in other countries, or the parts are manufactured in other countries.

Not much to export. What we need, is to stop spending so much money on subsidies to dairy farmers that were put in place during WWII, and never removed because it slipped the books.

What we need, is to stop spending money on committees and meetings. What we need, is to stop spending hundreds of dollars on little things like $500 hammers and $20 nails. And salaries of overpaid faculty members and officers of universities who can't do the job they're trained to do, so they teach it instead.

It's the little things that add up.

R
reg

Sonic reg

Sonic reg

Blue Jeans? There's one. They're available on the black market for the US equivalent of $300 a pair. Used. The ones you can get on the free market aren't made in the USA.

Produce and other perishables, particularly wheat, are pretty much the only things that other countries buy from us on any regular basis. And 663 Billion dollars doesn't even put a dent into the national debt.

As for not paying for abortions for poor people, yeah Alf, great idea. Let's pay for their kids to be born instead, raise'em up right on welfare just like Mama and Daddy.

R
reg

I'll tell you another thing too, we should dump welfare. We are not socialist or communist for a reason... that reason? They suck.. if you disagree please do us all a favor and move to china or sweden. I honestly cannot figure out why anyone is on the left. America is the best country BECAUSE of capitalism and the constitution. Competition always breeds better results. Again, if you don't want to or can't hack it... Try china, maybe it's a better fit.
Sure we're not PERFECT, but perfection only exists in an idealist's head.

Sonic

If you're not right, you're wrong. reg

Alfador I see the point in your post, but remember the original intent of the United States was to be a haven for people of all cultures and denominations..(it sucks morons have to count, but the govt. basically lets them.
-Zentalin reg

The United States should reform welfare and impose a time limit, as well as an obligation for all recipients to seek employment as soon as possible..

Personally I think the welfare program should reward people for getting a job.
Perhaps if you held a steady job for a month, you received a special welfare bonus for doing so. Subsequent months would increase the payment, but obviously there would be a cap.

This would give people incentive to get off their lazy ass and stop smoking crack with their welfare money. Of course, the reward from getting a job would be less than actual welfare. It would save the government money, and stimulate the economy by.
1. Giving people extra money to spend. (assuming they don't use it to buy drugs)
2. Creates jobs.
This in turn stimulates the economy..
What does anyone else think?
-Zentalin reg

I can't stand it that people abuse the welfare system, and I can't stand it even more that the government doesn't crack down on it and make reforms to get rid of the leeches.

I know a couple of people (not many) who had to rely on welfare for a year or two when they lost their jobs and couldn't pay their mortgage. The lender called the loan, and they became homeless. Thank god for welfare, which put them up in housing - lousy housing, but at least some sort of shelter, and gave them enough money to buy clothes for their kids and bus fare to look for work and keep gas in their car and their utilities turned on.

This small group of people had given plenty to the tax coffers for years as responsible job-holding citizens, and they took only what was necessary, for only the time needed to secure themselves with work.

I would like to see a government that supports this sort of attitude and behavior. I'm a hard-nose on the subject, in fact. Here's what I propose:

Families down on their luck get food, clothing, shelter for a period of 1 year maximum, assuming both mother and father are living together and are employable. Employable would be able-bodied and not insane. If it's a single parent, they'd have up to 2 years maximum, since I understand how hard it is to look for work while you're taking care of your kids at the same time.

If after this time they haven't found work - ANY kind of work, even minimum wage work at Burger King - then the kids get taken away to foster care and their welfare CUT OFF.

Women who get pregnant by their spouse or partner while they are on welfare would have two choices: have an abortion paid for by the taxpayers, or get cut off welfare and their child taken away to foster care once he or she is born. Birth control pills, diaphrams, condoms, would be FREE of charge to anyone on welfare, as would family planning counseling. Child-care classes would be *mandatory* to all welfare families, from Mom and Dad all the way down to big brother.

It sickens me that we need to prove that we can pass a test to drive a car, but anyone can have a child. In fact, I would make child-care classes mandatory for ALL pregnant mothers in the entire country, on welfare or not. Refuse to go, get the kids taken away. You don't deserve to have them.

People who have more than three children and are on welfare would be told just once - get pregnant again, and all three kids are outta there. Voluntary sterilization would be paid for by the taxpayer for any family on welfare with 3 minor children living with them.

I see so many people go on welfare because it's an easy way out - and keep having kids because the government subsidizes it. Stop paying for people to have kids. We already have enough of them who need parents.

As for cultural things we want that other countries have - lessee...

Armani
Ferrari
Most of modern rock and roll, which descended from British pop
Body piercings
Tye dye
Perfume
French manicures
Latte
Cappucchino
Escargot
Caviar
Dom Perignon
Swiss bank accounts ::drool::
Monty Python

Almost every single fad or fancy in the culture of the United States comes from somewhere else.

reg

Try:
Levi's
Gap
Old Navy
Microbrew
Lattes and cappuchinos(Starbucks or SBC when I can find it, which are both American companies)
McDonalds
Other assorted fast food restaurants
Computers
Microsoft (Yep, I know most of you hate the man, but think about what he's built and the timeframe he did it in)
Boeing
TV
Movies
Disney
Cars (Have you ever seen the prices Europeans pay for a vehicle? Ask any military family who heads overseas with an SUV)

Americans are good at taking an idea and running with it. The exporting of our culture is not a focus, but rather a byproduct of our self-absorbed image of greatness. It's one of the reasons many terrorists target us.

Think about the Russians. Anyone remember when McDonald's first opened in Moscow? People lined the blocks day and night to try to get a Big Mac, and paid a day's wage to eat it. Why? Would anyone here pay $100+ for a meal from MickeyD's? Why would people do that? Because they kept hearing about this fabulous icon of American culture.

Capitalism is a good thing. A president who realizes that protecting our industries is a must is a good thing. While tariffs go against the free market system, they are a needed part of the system we have, to compete with countries that will sell items to us for less than cost to establish market share, then raise prices. Remember when Japanese cars were a great bargain?

quote:

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It's nice to have a president who doesn't bend over and take it from everyone in the world just because the average citizen is too stupid to realize that he's a moron and is ruining the country.

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If you like what he's doing and think it's helping, how is that ruining our country? Or is that statement supposed to mean that if we'd elected a smart man, like say...someone who invented the Internet....We'd be taking it up the tailpipe?

Aerienne
reg

Sonic

[This message has been edited by Alfador (edited 03-23-2002).] reg

Oh my god, french manicures!? TYE DYE!!! how could i be so stupid?

Give me a break, I respect nothing on that list aside from ferrari (barely) and brit pop (which is very good), nor do I respect anyone who thinks those other things are cool. Swiss banks accounts are good if you want to cheat the goverment... great fad there.

Sonic reg

quote:

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Levi's
Gap
Old Navy
Microbrew
Lattes and cappuchinos(Starbucks or SBC when I can find it, which are both American
companies)
McDonalds
Other assorted fast food restaurants
Computers
Microsoft (Yep, I know most of you hate the man, but think about what he's built and
the timeframe he did it in)
Boeing
TV
Movies
Disney
Cars (Have you ever seen the prices Europeans pay for a vehicle? Ask any military family who heads overseas with an SUV)

---

These aren't all things that cultures outside the US have taken from the US. Disney, yeah. Cartoons, no. Movies, no. Cars, definitely not - though the technology for automobilies is from the states - moving vehicles date back to ancient egypt and the concept of moving vehicles are certainly not an american idea. We just improved on it But we still import more automobiles than we export. And the cars we export are mostly manufactured outside the USA.

Latte and Cappuchino are european things that WE took from THEM.

Same with beer, whether Microbrew or otherwise.

The Gap? Designer labels. Actually a fad that americans took from Europe.

Boeing? Maybe, but most of the electronic parts are made in other countries. We just assemble them here.

Computers? Almost exclusively made or assembled outside the US.

reg

And how could we forget Coca Cola and Pepsi?

And Alfador, your statement confused me which is why I asked. I, too, like Georgie.

Aerienne reg

Yea, it was wordy pretty poorly. Oh, well I was glad I could clarify it. Good point about the age of America... That definitely has a lot to do with it. In terms of fads? They are nice and all I guess, but also consider inventions and accomplishments... Airplanes, telephones, nuclear bombs, light bulbs, the assembly line, sky scrapers, submarines, the space shuttle, the fact that there are 6 flags on the moon and they all have stars and stripes, the best universities, the best doctors, the highest standard of living, I mean come on, this stuff doesn't just appear out of nowhere. Just because other countries copy our industry and somehow convince us to buy theirs shouldn't diminish faith in the American product... Would you trust the Japanese or Germans or French to send you to the moon? How about defend you? They've managed to survive the last 60 years without getting conquered again; that's a start =\.

Synergy is an important thing with regards to the way a country thrives. Just because we might not make the absolute best car on the market, who cares? It's not like American cars are unreliable and fall apart... So what, you'll spend an extra 10 bucks a month on gas or 500 bucks more in repairs every 10 years... Everything ultimately feeds off something else here, so support it all. There's no good reason not to.

Love it or leave it, seriously.

Sonic reg

Anyone who travels internationally knows that you see _many_ US brands worldwide.

We import, we export...I'm not quite sure what the problem is. Yes, lately we import more than export but I am failing to see why anyone here is getting all fired up over this.

We would be better off to export more yes but at the same time every other economy on the planet would trade places with us in an instant. Even the current (or it seems soon to be past) recession is relatively minor.

I can think of many things to fight over but this isnt one. reg

Yeah... the problem is that many cultures don't want drunks, pornography, and many of the bad things that go along with the "American" culture. American culture has a lot to do with sex and sex appeal, and continues to move more and more into that direction. Europe doesn't seem to have a problem with that, and they'll get assimalated any day of the week by America, but some cultures, and some countries do have a problem with it.

America is a great country for its own people, and its principles of living are for the most part very successful within its own borders. That's because its new, never had to encounter any serious threat of war (and I don't mean to offend anyone but this terrorism war is not even close to the threat of what a real full blown war would be), and also because it's a free society.

But I still have to point out that it's a young country, and most if not all countries flourished while they were young. You can point fingers at other countries at how much weaker and poorer they are and flaunt your own arrogance at how great you are all you want, and right now at this point in history you would be 100 percent right... but whether America can maintain this superiority for another 1000 years... well that's a totally different question.

Within context... America wasn't the first country to be so successful and so powerful, and it will not be the last either.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg

Thanks Kranar!

R
reg

And because of our location we will never be invaded. We might get pounded by missiles into submission, but thats why we are building the most sophisticated missile defense system ever. And don't think for a second that it won't be upgradable to protect against more than just 'rogue states.' The missile shield rules. We've been in a lot of wars, just none on our home land.

Iraq had the 3nd most intense air defense network in the world behind Russia and the U.S. We ripped it apart with relatively no loss. It's not because of the fighting spirit of the U.S. nor our determination per se... It's because of the brains behind our technology, war planners, AND our money. The fact that we are a rich country has enabled us to acheive so much... If we are to keep thriving, we must continue to have a reason to buy American... Of course the corporations should do their part, but so should the consumer. For example, don't fly any airlines that use Airbus planes. Although I suspect Airbus is going belly up now because of the terror attacks and their new jumbojet. Who the hell is going to fly in a two story 700 person plane and not worry about it being hijacked or simply blown up? Well anyway BUY AMERICAN.

Sonic reg

Skirmisher, the problem with us importing more than we export is that we are losing many of our vital industries to other countries. Did you know it's cheaper to import steel from Japan to than it is to buy American steel? And they actually have to import the raw material because they have none. If we keep allowing these industries to shut down, we run the risk of being at the mercy of other countries should they decide to place embargoes on us. One of the major parts to our self-suffiency is that we can create everything we need right here in America. We may not choose to tap into it (Alaskan Oil Fields) but it's there in reserve. Not to mention the unemployment rates. Towns and regions are often single industry dependent, and the shipping of one company overseas has a great effect on those left behind with no job, and no real hope of getting a job without moving away.

quote:

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Yeah... the problem is that many cultures don't want drunks, pornography, and many of the bad things that go along with the "American" culture. American culture has a lot to do with sex and sex appeal, and continues to move more and more into that direction. Europe doesn't seem to have a problem with that, and they'll get assimalated any day of the week by America, but some cultures, and some countries do have a problem with it.---Lord Kranar

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Not really sure where you are getting the drunks and pornography from. That really isn't an exclusively American problem. I would say that is by far something that is more relative to Europe than America. And have you every watched European TV? Have you any idea of how many sex shows they air? Americans are prudes in comparison.

Now sex appeal and the skimpy images (models, et al) are definitely a part of the American media. But fashion in general continues to be directed from Europe, and probably always will. Media stars, American and others, will continue to embrace the more outlandish and barest of clothing simply because it draws attention to them. Because Hollywood is the center for movies, we're the ones who get the backlash from it. It's this media image along with the standard of living that gets many other cultures outraged. Not the sole reasons, but among them.

Aerienne reg

We and every other country use tarrifs to try to control the level of imports.

Our economy while not roaring quite as hard as it was a few years ago is not about to fall apart although as Kranar pointed out in a hundred or thousand years things will probably be radically different.

That however is a long way off and I feel we are doing what we can to improve it as well as we may.

I think being the lead dog has a mix of good and bad that goes along with it.

Jealousy is built in part of the deal.

Arrogance is another. Both real and imagined on the part of others dealing with the whole jealousy thing.

I find that when I travel I love to hear the point of view of others and see how different people in different countries see us.

It can be difficult at times to listen to that gem who find not a single thing nice to say about the U.S. but have a whole laundry list of its horrors inflicted on the world.

The key for me at least is to always remember that while the U.S. is not the country we want it to be, we are certainly no worse than the next one. In many cases better.

The world is not filled with angels or devils, but with alot of people somewhere inbetween trying to do the best they can.

Every country in the world looks out for its own best interests and at the moment we are just doing the best job.

No big deal.

reg

Don't forget that we were also given more than everyone else. If nothing else, it is our responsibility to those passed to at least maintain what they've given us; improving upon it would be a good idea too though.

Sonic reg

Oh I don't know...

Perhaps because 60 percent of the internet... 60 percent, that's right... more than half, is pure porn.

That means take porn, shove it in one corner, and take EVERYTHING else the internet has to offer, and porn dominates.

Where does 90 percent of this porn come from? The U.S of A. Unfortunately I don't have the statistics as to how frequently these sites are accessed, but I'd guess it's in the billions every month. So I don't know if you were just in the dark about the fact that the U.S is heading more and more towards the sex appeal and other negative consequences that come from being a free society or whether you were trying to be devils advocate, but it's pretty common knowledge.

Being successful and powerful for 80-90 years is one thing (the U.S really rose to power after World War I, before that Great Britain was the world's superpower), maintaining that power within your own country and outside of your own country for 500 years to a millenia... well that's another story.

You got me on the drunk issue though since I have no statistics... but the point wasn't nessecarily to show what country has the most of anything, the point was that some cultures do not want to accept the western culture overnight because of the serious negative consequences that would result from globalization.

<< It's this media image along with the standard of living that gets many other cultures outraged. >>

That's totally false, and now I have to question where you get your information from... ever speak to someone from the middle east or another part of the world that has been negatively affected by the U.S? I mean you personally that is, because I keep hearing this jealousy arguement over how they are jealous of Americans, thrown out all the time and I have to ask where this arguement comes from... does it come from the minds of the people you're trying to accuse? Or perhaps it comes from your own self and your assumptions because it feels good thinking to yourself that you're culture and country is hated because of how envyous others are of you and how they wish so much they could be just like you. The reason they have a resentment towards the U.S has nothing to do with whether or not some American lives in some great palace with an 80 inch T.V. driking a coke and eating a Big Mac... infact many rich anti-U.S extremists do the same thing.

The resentment starts from war. War in which innocent civilians were unfortunately caught in the middle of, war which tore up their lives, and the entire country. And I've argued before many times, you can go ahead and justify that your intentions for war were morally superior and that killing some innocent wives or children was the only solution to not having to pay too much for oil... but for the thousands, no... millions of families and people who have been torn to shreads from war at the hands of the west, well they aren't going to buy any justification you give them. They are simply going to hate you for it and pass on that hatred. That's why they resent the west. You intended to go after their government, but instead you hurt the wrong people and hurt them hard without doing a damn thing to their government and you're STILL hurting them. Well, it's a good thing you didn't make the same mistake in Afghanistan, but for the past mistakes that the U.S did make, it will take a real long time before the hurt and hate passes away.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 03-24-2002).] reg

What most Americans unfortunately think is that we have so much money and safety and can do no 'wrong.' It's simply not true. You can't have a rich without a poor. You can't have a strong without a weak. There is a balance to everything, we just happen to be the beneficiaries of it. Don't like? Doesn't seem fair? It's not but it's the way things have to be. Communism is great for a beehive or ant colony, but not for humans. With the world as populated and divided as it is, equally is impossible.

Most countries have their geniuses and their morons, their perverts and their saints, their strong and their, their this and their that. Kranar's point about internet pornography was not exactly fair as the vast majority of internet sites are based out of the US. That would imply that all things behind relatively equal, the US would have the majority of the porn sites. Think a bit of porn will be the downfall of society? Try Algeria, I doubt they have much circulating.

The bottom line is that the world is a kill or be killed place. It's why we spend more than the GNP of most countries on defense. It's why we have nuclear bombs. It's why we have diplomats. It's why there is a giant hole in downtown manhattan. It's just the way it is. The enemy is out there and needs to be killed.

Sonic

Sonic reg

But I find it interesting how other countries produce it as well, and yet, we are the ones blamed for it, just like we are often the ones to blame for the ills of the world. I'd be interested to see figures as to where the images are coming from, not just where they can be seen.

And I agree. Only time will tell if America will survive. In 100 years, there might not be a USA, or even life on Earth. But I think for a young country, we've done pretty well for ourselves in creating a government that will last. Or maybe people will get it together and have 1 world government. I doubt it, but Europe is making strides in that direction, with the Euro monetary system, and the European Union.

I find it interesting where you point out that

quote:

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the point was that some cultures do not want to accept the western culture overnight because of the serious negative consequences that would result from globalization.

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And no, I didn't go out and try to reseach this for statistical data before I wrote here. I didn't know that was a requirement to having a debate on a gaming board. I am basing my OPINION off personal experience, education, reading, and from discussions I've had with people from around the world.

The basis for my comments about media image come from average people who fear a loss of their own culture and national identity due to the appeal of Western culture to their young people. Take for instance the ban on the Internet in Iran. In order to prevent their young people from being corrupted, they tried to prevent access to information from the West. It's this type of information that I was using as a basis for my comments.

And as for your comments about war, I find it interesting that you are apparently blaming Americans as being the cause of the world's wars and hatreds. Cite some examples, so I know which wars you are refering to, rather than the appeal to pathos you wrote which is hard to debate.

Aerienne
And yes, partially I am playing the devil's advocate, but also because I am enjoying this discussion. It's been a while since I've had someone to debate with, and it's good to have heated debates, but please, let's keep it focused on the debate, and not make it personal. Just so you know, I do believe America has a lot of flaws, but that they are outweighed by the good. reg

Sonic reg

I have very little personal experience to compare it with regarding other countries, so I can't say whether or not it's better than them.

I suppose if I was a Russian National I'd say Russia was a great country. I'd have food, clothing, shelter, decent medical treatment, and the opportunity to work if I needed to and was able.

In fact, if I lived in Nigeria I would probably be able to say the same thing. Or Egypt, or Zimbabwe, or Katmandu for that matter.

It's our experiences that we use to compare things, not what so-and-so told me, or what I read in such-and-such statistical website.

I'll tell ya something though - if I knew I could get what *I* consider decent food, clothing, shelter, medical treatment, and opportunity to work in one of the Carribean Islands, I'd defect in a heartbeat.

Roberta - wistfully dreaming about a life of pina coladas and pink beaches
reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Desharei:
I like the USA. It's a pretty good country, all things considered. I have food, shelter, clothing, decent medical treatment when I need it, and the opportunity to work if I need it and am able.

I have very little personal experience to compare it with regarding other countries, so I can't say whether or not it's better than them.

I suppose if I was a Russian National I'd say Russia was a great country. I'd have food, clothing, shelter, decent medical treatment, and the opportunity to work if I needed to and was able.

In fact, if I lived in Nigeria I would probably be able to say the same thing. Or Egypt, or Zimbabwe, or Katmandu for that matter.

It's our experiences that we use to compare things, not what so-and-so told me, or what I read in such-and-such statistical website.

I'll tell ya something though - if I knew I could get what *I* consider decent food, clothing, shelter, medical treatment, and opportunity to work in one of the Carribean Islands, I'd defect in a heartbeat.

Roberta - wistfully dreaming about a life of pina coladas and pink beaches

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I am glad you post here. reg

In fact, if I lived in Nigeria I would probably be able to say the same thing. Or Egypt, or Zimbabwe, or Katmandu for that matter.>>

Well consider yourself very lucky to honestly suppose these things, but it's not just by chance that America is by far the most sought after place by foreigners. We are VERY sheltered here, and that gives us a false perspective of the entire world. Two of my best friends are from Ukraine, USSR till they were 10, and they and their parents all agree the America is by far a better place to live. This South Korean kid I used to go to school with left Korea... Why? Because it wasn't promising. I knew guys from China, Peru, India and a couple other places who all say the same thing. If you don't think that it's so great here, please step aside and let someone who does take your place.

Sonic reg

quote:

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blah blah blah **snip** blah blah

if you don't like it here, step aside, blah blah blah

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If I don't like it here, I'll do whatever the hell I want, and there ain't nothin you can do about it other than whine, as you are doing now.

Of course, I DO like it here, which is probably why I stated so in the very first sentence of the post you responded to. But of course you wouldn't know that, because you're not quite bright enough to comprehend what you read. Or is that also blamed on minorities and women? Damn, I need to get that straight. It's my fault you can't read. Okay - got it.

The female minority
reg

Sonic reg

Just when I was beginning to enjoy the topic at hand, you both have to start in on each other. 20. 40. You are both being immature.

Aerienne reg

quote:

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It's our experiences that we use to compare things, not what so-and-so told me, or what I read in such-and-such statistical website. - Desharei

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So basically, if you've never travelled and experienced life, then you should never try to gain an understanding of other people, places, and cultures? Interesting. Guess I should be glad to be fairly well-travelled then, or I'd have nothing to compare anything to, because my education is apparently worthless.

Aerienne reg

It is impossible to form a comparison, based on personal opinion, on things that you haven't experienced.

I can say - Japan is better than America.

But it isn't a valid opinion, because obviously my limited experience of Japan (none at all) proves that I have no basis from which to form my opinion.

Even if everyone I know has been there except for me, and give me raving reviews on Japan, tell me how wonderful it is, how I should live there, how I can get rich there and retire next year and be treated like royalty - my opinion would be meaningless because it isn't mine. It's the formulation of everyone else's.

My thought on the matter still stands. America is a great country to live in. Great by my standards, on how I wish to live my life. I can't form an opinion on other countries to be able to say it's BETTER than the other countries, because I've never BEEN to those other countries. I only have what other people tell me about them, which makes it THEIR opinion, and not mine.

Now, based on what I've read, and heard, about the third-world nations, and based on what MY personal standard of living is, I would say that America is more appropriate for ME than those third-world nations. That STILL doesn't make it better. It simply makes it more appropriate for me.

::shrugs:: I don't see why this is so confusing to everyone.
reg

Sonic reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Alfador:
I agree with that for the most part, HOWEVER, I do think it's ok to use the opinions of people you trust as well as well founded statistics to pass judgement on the quality of life in a certain place. My grandma told me that in her village in Europe they had no running water nor electricity. Do I have to take a trip there and use the outhouse to say I'd probably prefer America? No, I don't think I do.

Sonic

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Heh - my grandmother told me that only very rich people had automobiles when she was growing up. Ice came on wagons and you had to buy it by the block, there was no refrigeration system other than the "icebox," and the average person lived to under 70 years of age.

Based on what my grandmother told me, I wouldn't want to live in her country either.

Unfortunately, she was born and raised right here in the good ole USA, and so was I. So I guess I'll have to live in a country that used to not have refrigeration.

Sucks to be me, eh?
reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Alfador:
For the record, America was practicing isolationism until December 7th 1941.

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Sonic reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Alfador:
Fighting to benefit yourself isn't a violation of isolationism. Fighting to benefit others is.

Sonic

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Again....not that we are any worse than others but please do some research into American history before making claims that imply the Spanish-American war was anything less than an opportunistic land grab. Read as _Expansionist_ not what normally qualifies as isolationist.

A well executed one....but a land grab nonetheless.

I'm not bashing here, just cannot let claims of moral superiority be made in cases like this. reg

Also, isolationism is a 20th century term. We pretty much did not involve ourselves in THAT much back then, at least not compared how much since WW2.

Sonic
reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Alfador:
Don't get me wrong... I'm not naive enough to think we can or have done no wrong. Plenty of it as a matter of fact, but as Sean Hannity says, "No country has ever amassed as much power as we have and abused it less." A true statement I'd say.

Also, isolationism is a 20th century term. We pretty much did not involve ourselves in THAT much back then, at least not compared how much since WW2.

Sonic

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Ooof...someone's quoting Sean Hannity...run away....run away... reg

Alaska could provide me with decent food, clothing, shelter, medical treatment, and opportunity to work. However, my friends and the weatherman who likes to tell me how FREAKING cold it gets there, tells me I don't want to move there....Do I need to experience 100 degrees below zero to know I won't like it? I don't think so.

I prefer to see the world with my own eyes, but when in doubt, some decent research always helps in a pinch.

Aerienne reg

Yes, I do need to know what silence is to know that I prefer sound.

Yes, I do need to know what darkness is to know that I prefer light.

One cannot compare apples to apples, if one has never experienced any other apple beyond the one they have in their hand.

How do you know that green is your favorite color, if you're colorblind?

How do you know that you like spicy foods if your taste buds don't work? (My dad suffers from that problem)

To summarize - you cannot possibly "prefer" one thing over another, if you have never experienced one of them.

That includes death by the way - so don't come up with the "I've never been dead but I still prefer living." How do you know? What if death is the ultimate orgiastic existence? Doesn't mean you should run and find out - but it does mean you have no basis from which to compare the two.

R
reg

I have never been zapped by lightning, but I hear it hurts. Do I need to get zapped to say I hope it doesn't happen? I have also never experienced being in space without a space suit. I hear it's not fun tho. In my opinion, I would not like it.

Aerienne reg

I've heard these debates many times and they are always very interesting. The German philosopher Immanuel Kant was the most successful at cracking this issue.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg

quote:

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Originally posted by LordKranar:
Desharei and Aerienne... you two are argueing and age old philosophy between the differences between an empirical foundation for an arguement (Desharei) and a rational foundation for an arguement (Aerienne).

I've heard these debates many times and they are always very interesting. The German philosopher Immanuel Kant was the most successful at cracking this issue.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

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So what you're saying, Kranar, is that Aerienne is worthy of Rations while I, as always, am worthy of an entire Empire.

Neato!

R
reg

Anyway, no shock here, but I have to disagree with Desh yet again. I've never had my head cut off with an axe nor have I ever been burned alive, but I can definitely tell you which I'd prefer with 100% certainty.

Sonic reg

And these better be dang good rations Desh. None of the MRE crap.

The philosophical truth of the argument is that it is EASIER to form a valid opinion if you have something in your experience to compare it to. And inevitably, if we want to make the argument stretch very, very far, you can always find something in your experience to compare it to.

I have a head. I happen to enjoy having it on my shoulders. Therefore, I can compare what I know, head on shoulders, to the opposite, no head on shoulders.

Confucius say, "No head on shoulders make hard to see."

Aerienne reg

reg

Lord Deprav
"Thats like your oppinion man." ~Dude~ reg

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg

<<And these better be dang good rations Desh. None of the MRE crap.>>

I love MREs.

Sonic

[This message has been edited by Alfador (edited 03-28-2002).] reg

And most of the MREs I've had were not to my liking.

Aerienne

reg

My boyfriend doesn't like Paris (and he hasn't been there so I'm somewhat on the same vein as Roberta.. how do you know unless you've been there.. but he's going on the path of that he doesn't like French people). I on the other hand loved it when I spent 10 days there on my honeymoon. Would I want to live there? Not sure since it would mean learning a new language. The country itself I have no problem with. My grandfather, on the other hand, spent a few months there and regretted coming back. Not because he dislikes America because he loves it here.. he just adored living in Paris (and boy am I envious of his time there).

This all reminds me of my mother (and I'm sure lots of other people's mother) telling me to eat something, me not wanting to because I may not like it, and being told "how do you know unless you try".

There's a huge difference between asking you to try, do or visit something/someplace that you know will be harmful to your health or safety (swallowing a sword, taking a pleasure trip to Afghanistan, or sticking a paper clip in an outlet) than something you've only "heard" stories about from friends or relatives.

So I uh.. agree with both Aeri and Roberta. There are some things you HAVE to experience on your own or your views will be bogus, but there are some you have to take on beliefs from people you trust.

I hate when I ramble when I'm bored at work!

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Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things. reg

Sonic reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Alfador:
Well Aeri, keep in mind that for at least 6 months of the year, my entire diet consists of spaghetti, soup, bean burrittos from taco bell and orange juice. An MRE beats the hell out of that.

Sonic

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That explains A LOT.

*Scuse me.. had to make a lot two words.

[This message has been edited by CrystalTears (edited 03-28-2002).] reg

reg

One of the best and worst times in my life.

Aerienne reg

Sonic reg

Sonic reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Alfador:
And unnatural selection allows many people to live that should not.

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You know I bit my tongue, I promised myself I wouldn't say anything, but wow. That statement just bothers me so much.

Since when did you become God and know who's worthy of living or not? Do NOT play that card here.

Then again you like to get a rise out of people so I'll end my argument here.

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Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things. reg

Sonic reg

Sonic reg

Within context you're discussing living creatures with no purpose or meaning in life. I don't know if this concept is alien to you Alfador... but in todays civilization and society we human beings attempt to be more than simply biological creatures who inhabit the planet, eat food, have sex, kill for sport and then die when our time comes.

So in response to your question above... yes it is the right thing to do, to help other human beings who may just be in need of our help. To recognize another living person and actual appreciate life itself instead of just thinking about ourselves and how to kill off the next guy before he kills you.

Just because that concept isn't practiced by everyone, everywhere... doesn't mean it's wrong.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg

Sonic reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Alfador:
It's the truth, if you can't handle it that's your problem. Was it right for the homosapiens to kill off Neanderthals? Is it right to prop up a dying country/people because 'that's the right thing to do?'

Sonic

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Do you have any allergies?
Have you ever have to use an emergency room?
If so, welcome to being "propped up".

Many people are alive today who in the past would not be due to advances in medical technologies.

They are alive not due to natural selection.

We use the financial and technological forces at our disposal to try to better the world we live in for ourselves.

When the US moves to help another country be assured it is not done out of sheer generosity but through a well thought out plan.

Be sure of that. reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Alfador:
I didn't mean morally right. Yes it's morally right to do that, but it is naturally right? We slaughter animals by the millions. I really don't think there is THAT much of a difference, from an observers standpoint. If an alien race was viewing earth, do you think they'd readily distinguish before humans killing humans by the hundreds much differently than humans killing animals (who have been raised solely for the purpose of dying) in any more contempt? I don't think so.

Sonic

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What the hell....I actually agree with alfador....

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I got no dukes. reg

Sonic reg

We kill animals that have been raised to die, for the purpose of eating them, or using their skins/hides for clothing. While I don't approve of mink farms, I won't begrudge someone who does. I just won't buy a mink coat, and that's that.

I do, however, believe that killing for sport is barbaric.

People killing other people, is equally barbaric.

I am, however, in favor of the death penalty.

Go figure. It's a complex world. There's little room in this world for simplistic ideals.

R
reg

Whatever we took from other countries just makes us smart we took them because we had the sense to know we could make them better and cheaper and then rack up the price and make a better profit now thats the american way. As for computers being from america thats incorrect probably the first computer came from eygpt although they didn't know it was a computer at the time. If your talking about a CPU run by eletricity etc. then look to Japan they made the first micro chips. Software is one thing we can claim though americans made windows mac DOS linux and unix so there lol. Coffee in general was first made by south american's so at least its a little more local lol. Anyway as jack in the box would say this is still the best damn country on earth.

Mano reg