Sonic reg
Arafat is good for Israel anyways... whenever something bad happens, they can just dump all the blame on him for it.
If he resigned, then that would be good for both countries, he certainly isn't the best candidate for a leader in search of peace, infact he's not even a good candidate... however nor is Sharon. But regardless he remains the symbol of a Palestinian identity and if he were to be killed then it would be the absolute end to any peace agreement between Israel and the middle east and they can just continue living the hell they're in right now.
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard
[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 03-29-2002).] reg
Anyway, not to stray too far off. It's obvious that Arafat will never be for peace and that is why he needs to go. A band-aid doesn't fix a compound fracture.
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Aparantly you don't understand that there is no easy solution to this since your suggestion was that:
"Israel should execute him and install a puppet chairperson."
As far as I'm concerned, there will be no solution to this problem. Not today, and not for another 200 years. Palestinians feel very betrayed and wronged for being put under occupation and refugee camps in their own home, they will not accept a peace plan unless it works out favorably for them, and Israel has been a state for 50 years and a homeland for millions and there's no way they are going to just dissappear overnight because some bum wants to blow himself up inside a shopping mall.
This is a case of perpetual hatred, a problem that should have been dealt with a long time ago, but wasn't. So now you're left with a new generation of people, many of which were innocent and from both sides of the coin dragged into this ongoing battle. Jews and arabs who grow up hating each other and having horrible acts of violence commited against them by the other party. Just continuous war and violence.
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard
[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 03-29-2002).] reg
Anyway Kranar, I like hearing your posts because unlike most of the people I tend to incite, you actually make sense and points.
Sonic reg
Oh don't get me wrong... the suicide bombing isn't doing anyone any good, but these people feel like they have nothing to lose... when you're pushed into a corner, living as refugees under occupation with no chance of living a successful or enjoyable life... you push back.
The situation we have here though is that BOTH people have been pushed into the corner by the other person.
Moving on... How can one person get rid of the terrorist groups? It makes no sense to expect Arafat, a man who is now under house arrest and an enemy to Israel to somehow get rid of terrorist groups which are more powerful than he is. Additionally... many people in Palestine including the police don't want to get rid of the terrorist groups. Israel has an army with nuclear weapons, excellent aircraft and other militarist equipment, Palestine doesn't have jack squat and so these terrorist groups are the only "army" that Palestine can ever hope to get. It's silly to just put all the blame on Arafat everytime a suicide bomber goes off.
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg
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Well no you didn't, but watching the news this morning all I heard was Arafat this, Arafat that, Arafat here, Arafat there...
<< I think this is a bad call and I hope we don't stick our noses into this mess militarily. >>
Well before I state what I think I should just remind you that I don't believe any peace agreement can be made between Israel and Palestine. Having said that though, if hypothetically a peace agreement were made between the two countries, and the agreement worked favorably for both countries (man would this be one heck of an ideal world), only then would I support the U.S. using the military to take out terrorist organizations in Palestine.
Until then it would be biased to take down the fighting force of one side and allow the fighting force of the other side to remain. I see Israel's army as being just as much of a terrorist as I do the Palestinians who blow themselves up, just one group wears a uniform and has billions of dollars to spend and the other one doesn't.
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard
[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 03-29-2002).] reg
Well I didn't... I was at school until about 1:30pm eastern.
<<I see Israel's army as being just as much of a terrorist as I do the Palestinians who blow themselves up, just one group wears a uniform and has billions of dollars to spend and the other one doesn't.>>
I find this kind of hard to believe. While I see the parallelism between the two, I think the Israelis tend to be more distinguished in their attacks. I don't really know what else they are supposed to do short of raiding Palestinian controlled land and executing all suspected terrorists. Do you have any suggestions for them?
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I *guarantee* you...if Arafat dies, all hell will break loose--blood will run all over the Middle East--and here too. You think Sept. 11th was bad, I'm more than sure there'll be plenty more where that came from.
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The *point* of my post is that killing Arafat would serve ABSOLUTELY NO purpose. More harm than good would come of his murder. What do I base that theory on? Well, multiple organizations back him in his plight against Israel--the Hezbollah, the Hamas, Al-Qaida, Islamic Jihad (I believe that is the name of the group) and quite a few others. Though they do listen to him, they also consider him their champion, and his death will rally them rather than conquer them. These people have cells all over the world, with members of all different nationalities, not just in the Middle East. They have cells in Africa, in the Phillipines, in Europe...there are probably a few cells right here in the USA, including members that aren't Middle Eastern, African, or Indonesian, but American--right among us every day and we have no idea.
Every time you turn around they are finding some lab or whatever that these people were using to create biological and chemical weapons..bombs and such. I seriously doubt they kept all their inventory in Afghanistan, considering their organizations are pretty much global--We're not fighting just one country, we're fighting terrorism, which is pretty much all over the place--so the truth is, we are to a point, even here in the US, vulnerable, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that if Arafat is killed by Israeli soldiers with tanks and guns funded by American dollars (which is the reason Sept 11th happened according to them) we are a prime target. Why do you think the UN is hell bent on having Israel immediately withdraw their forces?
[This message has been edited by Weedmage Princess (edited 03-30-2002).] reg
Of course it's global. It's being supported by many Arab nations which I wish we'd hurry up and deal with. I predict Saddam Hussein will be a charred corpse at best by the end of this year though. Almost all of the Arab leaders are dictators that do not care about their people. They are inherently BAD people and I bet once some of these regimes start getting toppled you will see a much more peaceful middle east.
Most humans are reasonably moderate. Very few of us are really hardliners to one side or the other. With decent leaders that care about peace in place, Arab countries COULD get along with the rest of the world. They are currently fighting almost everyone... the US, the Russians, the Jews, the Hindus, the Chinese. Obviously though most of Arab people are not dumb enough to think they can or even should destroy the rest of the non arab world. They just have pretty poor leaders with no reasonable goals.
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However, Arafat's fall from power and Arafat's death are two different things, painting two very seperate scenarios respectively. If Arafat is stripped of his power, and perhaps tried (although yet I don't believe they have anything CONCRETE that says he instructed these groups to carry out their acts against Israel so that may be jumping ahead) I believe everyone involved can gain a lot more. Now, if he's simply killed--by Israelis...that will have everyone who disagrees with Israel's ocupation of Palestinian territories up in arms, which will do nothing but cause more attacks, this time on a larger scale I'm certain. THAT is why I say killing Arafat is NOT the thing to do. Atleast not at this stage.
[This message has been edited by Weedmage Princess (edited 03-30-2002).] reg
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I would like to point out that this is not infact accurate.
Today thousands of British (Britains of all backgrounds), and Canadians were protesting against Israel's occupation and oppression of Palestine. Not only was the public protesting, but the majority of MPs (they are the equivalent to congressmen) are against Israel's recent actions to force a ceasefire. Ariel Sharon's plan to force Palestinians into a cease fire is not working, it's inneffective, useless, and is causing for more aggresion, tension and instability in the region. If his purpose is to try and forcefully stop terrorism and protect the people of Israel (which is a just cause), he is failing miserably. If his purpose is to try and oppress and humiliate the Palestinians, well he's doing a good job of it, and it's only causing aggravation.
Additionally, China, Russia, and all these countries you name have stated they do not support an attack against Iraq, which seems to be more and more of a U.S. priority. Historically most of Europe has sided with the arabs and have never shown much support for Israel or for the U.S against Iraq.
The statement you make does seem to imply that the Arab world is an independent world that is becoming more and more of an enemy to the rest of the world.
My response is that the statement is entirely false.
I think the only thing we agree on is that Arafat is a problem.
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg
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Since when is Chechnya an arab country?
Next thing you know you'll be saying that Afganistan is an arab country!
<< You are kidding yourself if you think Europe cares about the Arab world because they don't. They are only concerned because they have money invested in it in some way. >>
Well let's see... EU has started to stop buying from Israel until Israel pulls out of Ramallah. Now this isn't such a big punishment economically, but it shows that the EU isn't supporting Israel in its fight against Palestine.
Additionally since Israel has been destroying Palestinian hospitals schools and infrastructure which were *BUILT* and funded for by members of the EU, the EU has asked that Israel pay for what it has destroyed in Palestine.
That's a pretty bad slap in the face in terms of support. Europe has morally, politically, and financially aided Palestine in the past, that isn't something you find most enemies would do.
<< I'm betting that when the US invades Iraq, China and Russia will not do a thing about it, nor will France unless they feel like getting conquered yet again... >>
I don't see how the U.S. could invade Iraq without any support from the middle east. For God's sake... Kuwait, the country the U.S. fought for during the Gulf War doesn't support a war against Iraq (Iraq recently recognized Kuwait as a country and made peace with them at the arab sumit). The U.S. could not in anyway justify an attack against that country and for political reasons I don't think they will attempt to overthrow Saddam.
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard
[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 03-30-2002).] reg
Next thing you know you'll be saying that Afganistan is an arab country!>>
I was trying to avoid saying muslims, but fine I will. The muslims are fighting everyone.
<<Well let's see... EU has started to stop buying from Israel until Israel pulls out of
Ramallah. Now this isn't such a big punishment economically, but it shows that the EU isn't supporting Israel in its fight against Palestine.>>
I never said Israel had any support in it's fight though.
<<Additionally since Israel has been destroying Palestinian hospitals schools and
infrastructure which were *BUILT* and funded for by members of the EU, the EU has asked that Israel pay for what it has destroyed in Palestine.>>
Which affirms what I said: "They are only concerned because they have money invested in it in some way."
Sonic reg
You are telling that to an American? We've gotten it thrown right back into our faces a million times but we still shell out the money regardless... Don't forget who the biggest financial supporter of Palestine is. It doesn't mean anything.
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There are over a billion muslims in the world. Millions of which live in the U.S, millions of which who live in Canada, millions of which who live in Europe, Asia, and all over the world. Many muslims have nothing to do with one another infact. If muslims really were as hateful to be enemies with everyone else this entire world would be upside down, every muslim would be under scrutiny. Yes, there are many terrorists who are muslim and have very hateful beliefs and wrong interpretations of what was meant to be a peaceful religion, but not a billion, infact not even half the muslims in the world share the hate that some very twisted individuals do.
<< Which affirms what I said: "They are only concerned because they have money invested in it in some way." >>
When a country funds the creation of educational facilities, hospitals, housing, sends food and provides moral support, it's no longer an investment, it's just help. Palestine has nothing to give back to Europe (there is no oil there 
), this is no investment.
I fail to see how this help constitutes Europe as an enemy of Palestine or the arab/muslim or whatever world.
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard
[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 03-30-2002).]
[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 03-30-2002).] reg
The U.S. is not a big financial supporter of Palestine.
They are a big supporter of Egypt? Yes... Jordan? Yes... Israel? Yes... Palestine? No. Infact they were never a big financial supporter of Palestine ever.
It was always Europe who helped Palestine, when Arafat became the chairman of Palestine, it was Europe that gave him billions of dollars (unfortunately Arafat wasted all of it and he should be punished for it), not the U.S.
Once again... The U.S. has never been a big financial supporter of Palestine.
Just would also like to say that this entire debate is rather controversial, and it's very respectable that after this much discussion things have remained steady, and not turned into a flame war or insult party.
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard
[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 03-30-2002).] reg
Catholysism is the most popular religion in the world and they are only about 1.1b strong. I heard this from a very reputable source. Islam is a very close second, but I know its not near 1.8b, I'd say more like a shade over 1b. Also, if you read some of my prior posts you'll see that I'm not against muslims, I'm against the current muslim leadership; I want to make sure that's clear.
<<I fail to see how this help constitutes Europe as an enemy of Palestine or the arab/muslim or whatever world.>>
It doesn't by any means, but it certainly doesn't necessarily make them an ally.
<<The U.S. is not a big financial supporter of Palestine.>>
I tried to double check that and the site I found said this. I admit it could be wrong, as I'm not really sure. I'll concede this one and assume you are right.
<<It was always Europe who helped Palestine, when Arafat became the chairman of
Palestine, it was Europe that gave him billions of dollars (unfortunately Arafat wasted all of it and he should be punished for it), not the U.S.>>
If Europe manages to hold him accountable I'd love to hear how they did it. We've got quite a few people who heads deserve to roll for stealing our 'aid.'
<<Just would also like to say that this entire debate is rather controversial, and it's very respectable that after this much discussion things have remained steady, and not turned into a flame war or insult party.>>
As long as people don't start taking shots it's safe to say none will be returned. The usual antiAlfador crowd has been pretty silent which coincidentally has lead to civility, go figure. (my last comment on the crowd, assuming no one pushes it)
It also should be understood that all parties (here) ultimately want the same thing. Contrary to what I'm sure is popular belief by now, I'm not a fan of bloodshed for the sake of bloodshed. That being said though, I'm not a fan of useless diplomacy. It worked well during the Cold War and I'll gladly acknowledge that, but sometimes, like in WW2 and desert storm you just have to roll up your sleeves in dive into the frey. I'd rather be too quick to kill a potential enemy than too slow to stop him from killing me.
Sonic reg
I wanted to double check, 22 percent of the world is muslim and that puts it over the 1.1 billion mark. Of course different sources vary, but no it isn't 1.8 billion.
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard
[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 03-30-2002).] reg
quote:
Originally posted by LordKranar:
Jews and arabs who grow up hating each other and having horrible acts of violence commited against them by the other party. Just continuous war and violence.- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard
Right on lets just send in the marines and kill them all there we go no more problem "roll eyes"
[This message has been edited by Manodith (edited 03-31-2002).] reg