The Players Corner Archive

This pisses me off personally, why should a bunch of fat people ruin it for the rest of us.

Clearly there is a big problem in America with fat kids. Kids aren't smart enough to realize that being fat is bad, so it's not really their fault. A more effective measure? Slap a tax on having fat kids. Parents will then have two options:

1. Pay more money
2. Put your kid on a diet

There is no good excuse to being fat unless of course you reside outside of reality. A very simple thing called thermodynamics states that if you output more than you input you cannot retain anything. Want to eat junk food? Fine, don't sit around all day playing GS. God forbid people run like Rhett suggested was fun earlier. Anyway before this becomes a pretty ugly tirade... any thoughts?

Sonic reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Alfador:
[b]There is no good excuse to being fat unless of course you reside outside of reality.

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There are glandular conditions that can alter people's weight, along with genetic predispositions to obesity. The former there's not much you can do for, aside from taking lots of corrective medication, though the latter is possible to overcome.
reg

Little late for that.
reg

Unless the obesity is a cause of a gland malfunction or a surgical procedure (people tend to put on all kinds of weight after a hernia operation) to single out SODA is absurd. While it isn't the most healthy beverage a child could have, I will go on the record and say I do not believe it is the leading cause of childhood obesity. FOOD tends to pack more grams of fat than drink--pastas, cookies, cake, candy, etc. Under their logic, they'll need to tax those too, which is also ludicrous.

Obesity is a a health problem--caused by a couple of different things. Some nothing can be done about--however when the cause is a poor diet, that's not the food industry or the softdrink idustry's fault, that's the fault of the person consuming the product, or their legal guardian. This is just another way of parents not living up to their responsibility of properly tending to their children. Instead of just cramming cupcakes and McDonald's down their throats, make them eat some REAL FOOD. Cook some vegetables, throw them some fruit every now and then..yeah sure they're going to give you a hard time but as my mother told me when I was little "Look, I'm not arguing with you--you're the child, I'm the adult..eat it or starve!" Maybe if parents were made to take a little more care in their child's activities, there wouldn't be as many of the problems we have today with the youth of America. And that doesn't just go for childhood obesity, either. reg

A class action law suit is being filed by a bunch of fat people who will be suing McDonalds because they are too fat.

I think this is a very dumb idea. If you are stupid enough to think that you can pound down cheeseburger after cheeseburger after cheeseburger, then lounge around all day and still expect not to balloon up, you got another thing coming.

And for the record, the whole genetics thing is primarily crap. It accounts for under 20% of the reason people are fat. Diet and Exercise is over 70%. If someone who should weigh 120lbs weighs 300lbs, it's not genetic. If they weighed 140lbs or 150lbs, fine it might be genetic. Thats really not what I'd call a FAT person though, just too big. I'm talking more alone the lines of weighing 150%+ of what ones desired weight should be.

Sonic reg

Placing any sort of tax on an item because of its nutritional content cannot be justified when the root causes are still yet to be determined. Today Pepsi, tomorrow Count Chocula?

Cigarettes and alcohol are one thing. They are inherently dangerous no matter how much or little is consumed. But sugary products are only dangerous if you have a specific medical condition or are an overeater.

I don't know the details of the McDonald's lawsuit but initially at least the lawsuit seems no more than politically motivated.

I think it's important not to blame the victim here. Blame the socio-political climate instead.

Even in California, I don't see such a tax as having any plausible chance at seeing the light of day. If anything, though, at least more light is shed on the subject. Obesity is a national epidemic.

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~Varys

[This message has been edited by Varys (edited 03-31-2002).] reg

Sonic reg

PS the next day they complained because I was outside cooking some burgers on the grill they didn't like the smell I wonder if they are gonna call the city.

Mano reg

Quit coddling folks this damnable political correctness has turned us soft, in an effort to not hurt someone's feelings we have underminded what made us great, resolve and desire.

(Edit- Dont you hate when your brain gets ahead of your hands and you ommit words )
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Anticor Rifling, Giantman Wizard

[This message has been edited by AnticorRifling (edited 04-01-2002).] reg

Soda companies are very... very powerful. No pop law will be imposed.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg

R
reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Desharei:
I think we've heard just about enough with the fat insults. Can we can it please?

R

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Can it.. soda tax.. heh.

Seriously though, either offer a good argument or debate, or move along. The one-liner fat insults are getting old. Enough already. reg

<<We live in a day and age where it is never the persons fault, blame it on some faceless demon. -- Anticor>>

Right on. Andrea Yates didn't kill 5 babies, HER DEPRESSION DID, give me a break. I think you are exactly correct though when you say that people need to take responsibility. Over 50% of the pregnancies that occur in Brooklyn result in abortion. Is that birth control? I think so. In this day of political correctness and caring so much about peoples feelings, it's lead us down a horrible path. We are fat, we are reactive as opposed to proactive, it's never our fault, and we like it that way. I know of no more responsible or even likable group of people than the military. Most of the guys and girls of I know will bend over backwards for you if it really comes down to it. I doubt it's that way at Jenny Craig and I certainly know it's not that way at the liberal cess pools we call colleges where staff will slit your throat as quickly as they'll pocket their paycheck.

What I'm trying to say is that whether it be being this or that, own up to it and suck it up. Just because you can't beat someone on a test score doesn't mean a grave injustice has be done to you by the government. Just because you can't figure out that by intaking more calories then you burn you are gonna fat doesn't mean that McDonald's needs to pay for your medical bills. Improvement begins in your own head, not in some court or some abortion clinic. Be responsible people.

Sonic reg

quote:

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Most of the guys and girls of I know will bend over backwards for you if it really comes down to it.

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Now that sounds like fun..

reg

I have strong feelings on the issues of responsibility as well, Sonic. I agree, we as a society definitely need to be more responsible for our own actions. We live in a sue-happy society that loves to find someone else to blame.

I think the soda tax itself is a ridiculous idea. So where would this Fat Prevention tax money go to? General Budget? Schools? Public Assistance Medical help? I'm guessing it's the first one, which does nothing to help the issue that this is supposedly targetting. In reality, if you consume large enough quantities of any item, you will find money in your budget to continue to pay for it. Paying a few cents more is not going to stop you. Look at how many people become smokers, even with the information we know about it and the high luxury taxes on it.

Even with the ownership of responsibility, I do think that looking at the whole issue is important. Medical conditions contribute to problems like obesity, so the fat people are lazy comments bug me.

You mention the Andrea Yates case. I don't think she is deserving of the death penalty, but I do think she needs to do the time for the crime. I also think that the negligence in treatment is an important issue. Mitigating circumstances. But I see the world in a rainbow of grey shades, not black and white <g>.

The American legal system is a vital part of maintaining the ownership of responsibility. Unfortunately, with America having the vast majority of lawyers in the world, we as a society have become skewed into looking for someone else to blame, particularly since there is often money in it.

Look at the world we now live in. Lawsuits against McDonald's for having hot coffee, means businesses must now put "Warning! Contents may be extremely hot!" Like I was expecting it lukewarm? Or plastic bags frequently have "Warning! Playing with plastic bags may result in suffocation!" Hmmm....This box of needles does not warn against ingestion...........I wonder...

Aerienne reg

Sonic reg

Alfador and others spend posts bashing fat people showing once more a remarkable maturity and tolerance but that is let go.

The Mcdonalds case is far from the clear cut common sense issue you are under the impression it is. Check into it and you may be surprised.

Andrea Yates ....absolutely in favor of death penalty...however... in her case i am in favor of lifetime imprisonment not to be merciful but to study her insanity and try to utilize those studies to avoid such future tragedies.

Personal responsibility, all for it.

My brother is quite overweight and I know he would agree such a surcharge on sugary and fatty foods is nonsense. He has also admitted to me and others on more than one ocasion that he is overweight because he eats too much period. Trying to blame things like metabolism is just silly exept in perhaps the 1/1000th percentile.
I also know that people can be insensitive jerks about overweight people and fail to see why its ok to ridicule them.

My brother lets most comments slide but they piss me off like no end cause I know that deep down they hurt him.

Hey congrats you made fun of a fat person go you. reg

Sonic reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Alfador:
Not only is it unattractive, but it's very, very unhealthy. It's kind of like expecting me to have sympathy for a drug addict.

Sonic

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quote:

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Originally posted by Skirmisher:
My brother lets most comments slide but they piss me off like no end cause I know that deep down they hurt him.

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At least someone gets it. It isn't about sympathy.
reg

'lood
reg

The fact that they are fat. It's unhealthy and usually preventable. I don't see a reason to die when you are 55 from a massive heart attack because you were either too lazy to do small amount of working out or eating decently. Consider me a charity worker.

Sonic reg

'lood reg

Sonic

[This message has been edited by Alfador (edited 04-01-2002).] reg

Their are many factors that lead to heart attacks that don't envolve what the bathroom scale reads in the morning.

Yeah, for 95% of fat people, its their own "fault" their fat, but I don't see whats so wrong with that choice.

Ok, so maybe its not the most actractive thing in the world, but I don't think full body tatoos or eyebrow rings are either, it doesn't mean its bad, doesn't mean the government needs to regulate it.

California is screwed up law-wise anyway, they've always been. Thier 9nth district court gets the most overturns from the supreme court than any other court , and their always dreaming up some stupid plan to turn the whole state into a big huge hive mind of beautiful, pollutant free, unbiased hippies. (No research or statistics to back up the last sentence, purely personal opinion).

'lood

reg

Well I sure don't need to see any research to buy this. This law is obviously stupid and it obvious won't make it, but I thought it was kind of interesting that things like this are given a forum. A testament to our failing judicial and legislative branches of government? I dunno, maybe. Also, for the record, I hate hippies, surprise.

Sonic reg

Well certainly when you make a rule, or form an opinion, you form it based on the 95 percent, not the 5 percent exception.

I also don't buy this claim "Being fat doesn't neccesarily make you unhealthy."

I'll refer to the word obesity since that term has a medical definition, whereas fat is more subjective.

When obesity itself is an *independent* health factor in over 40 forms of cancer and a risk factor for many other causes of death, not to mention it's also rather negligent to ones own health and well being, I think I'd stick to the rule that being obese means being unhealthy. Once again, an obese person may try and hide themselves behind that 5 percent exception you state, and just tell themselves that there is nothing they can do about it, or that they're overweight but they're still healthy, but I personally will stick to my common sense and continue to watch my weight, my health, and overall physical condition.

Health care in Canada is payed for by tax payers, I'd feel pretty ashamed using up tax money because I couldn't control my diet. I'd also feel 10 times sillier looking at myself if I were obese and saying "Yep, I'm healthy alright."

Discriminating against obese people though is definitly wrong, we certainly don't accept discrimination against other medical conditions, but to somehow try and tell yourself that you're healthy while in a state of obesity is a simple lie with some serious negative consequences.

Obesity *IS* a health problem, sad thing is that it can be cured for so many people, but they make the choice not to cure themselves.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 04-01-2002).] reg

quote:

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Originally posted by LordKranar:

Obesity *IS* a health problem, sad thing is that it can be cured for so many people, but they make the choice not to cure themselves.

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If I want to go on a 6 month long nacho cheese binge and leave a bloated and festering corpse, who's right is it to tell me I can't? If I wanna be lazy or if I wanna be active and in shape, what differance should it make, that's like saying everyone has to be gay or straight. This is america, I should be able to choose what I can and cannot do with my own body. Anyone who thinks otherwise, I have only one thing to say to you. Go back to russia.

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I got no dukes. reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Fralcon:
If I want to go on a 6 month long nacho cheese binge and leave a bloated and festering corpse, who's right is it to tell me I can't?

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Just as long as you don't affect my taxes, you can do whatever you want. reg

I don't care if you want to inject yourself with AIDS, you certainly have the right to it, but to somehow say that AIDS isn't a health problem is a lie.

People smoke, take illegal drugs, abuse legal drugs, stay out in the sun with no sun lotion on for extended periods of time, and do many other things that lead to a very unhealthy life style. Be my guest, but if you think you can eat all you want and physical deteriorate your body and think to yourself that it's healthy... well you're lying to yourself.

That's all my arguement is saying, if after realizing that being obese is infact a serious health problem and you don't care, go for it. Heck, people still start to smoke, may as well still have people who can't control their diets.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Alfador:
<<Whats wrong with fat people? >>

The fact that they are fat. It's unhealthy and usually preventable. I don't see a reason to die when you are 55 from a massive heart attack because you were either too lazy to do small amount of working out or eating decently. Consider me a charity worker.

Sonic

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It IS a sad thing to see someone die early from complications due to obesity, and sometimes it IS unhealthy. However also consider that it's not always a "lazy" thing when they can't lose weight.

People who claim fat people to be lazy tend to not have been obese themselves because it is far from an easy task to lose 50+ pounds (let alone sometimes 10.. geez that's a pain).

It is a slow and sometimes painful process to get someone 200+ pounds to get the energy, the motivation, the stamina, the endurance and even the -ability- to do any kind of exercise, even just walking from the house to the corner and back. Sometimes the process to lose weight is such an emotional and psychological struggle because you don't see a change fast enough to keep you motivated to continue that you don't.

We have a family friend that has spent the majority of her years overweight. At her heaviest she was 400 pounds. She was able to bring it down to 250 pounds or so when her grandchildren wanted to play with her and she couldn't do more than stand. That was her motivation to get up and walk a little everyday. It took her over two years to lose that weight. The problem now is that the children and grandchildren are grown, she's suffering through depression and other life altering points in her life, and she has gone back to being overweight, now at 450 pounds. Her doctors have advised her that if she doesn't receive doctor treatments, perhaps surgery of some kind, and a strict diet, she'll have 6 months to a year to live due to severe damage to her lungs and heart because of the fat weight. This scares us because we all know it doesn't take 6 months to lose over 200 pounds so we're scared for her.

Sometimes it's a personal choice to let it go and not care and be content with being overweight. I don't think those people should be penalized in anyway because they are not visually appealing to someone else.

So does that mean that people with severe acne that can't afford a dermatologist should pay extra for skin creams and acne medicine because they're not attractive due to their skin condition?

Penalizing people for life choices because other people don't agree with the way they live their life is wrong. Worry about yourself and stop making an issue about what everyone else is doing. This is a key reason why many people in Gemstone are never happy because their constant complaining is about what someone else is doing and may have nothing to do with you. reg

And I am sorry to hear about your friend, Crystal. Hopefully they will be able to help her get back to a reasonable weight and extend her life. Weight is extremely hard to lose the bigger you get. And the older you get, the more your metabolism slows, and the harder it is to keep losing it.

quote:

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Penalizing people for life choices because other people don't agree with the way they live their life is wrong. Worry about yourself and stop making an issue about what everyone else is doing. --CrystalTears

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I agree with this statement, with the addition of the phrase "unless what they are doing has an impact on you." I have nooooo problem with luxury taxes on cigarettes.

Aerienne

reg

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I got no dukes. reg

No, I would have to determine how fat someone needs to be in order to be obese.

Obese has a medical definition, and it isn't weighted in pounds of fat or anything like that, we all have fat afterall.

If you're obese, then you have a health problem. If you're cool with it and don't feel like losing the weight, so be it.

<< People who claim fat people to be lazy tend to not have been obese themselves because it is far from an easy task to lose 50+ pounds (let alone sometimes 10.. geez that's a pain). >>

Just like most if not all medical conditions... the trick is to prevent it from happening in the first place. It's not like you wake up one morning and pow, you've gained 20 pounds, it usually takes up to a year infact of gradually gaining a pound here, a pound there and doing nothing about it.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg

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~Varys reg

Doctors also say that the placement of fat is very important also, fat deposit in the thighs is less likely to "cause" health problems then fat around the waistline.

The anti-obese people like to wow you with statistics about "preventable deaths" due to "obesity". Well, thats a load of crap in my opinion. What statistics do they use? Deaths due to heat attack, diabetes, etc. Well geez, so only fat people get heart attacks? Only fat people get diabetes? No. Are the skinny people's heart attacks preventable? Are the skinny people's diabetes precentable? My father was 300 lbs and 6'1 at his "prime", and my aunt was very thin. They both have diabetes, and my aunt has had a new liver, pancreas, and a couple other major surgeries while my dad has had none. My dads now around 160 lbs, and he's alot less healthy now then he has ever been.

In my opinion, the actual fact that you have more fat reserves than another person does not constitute "unhealthy" or "health problems" , its just that a large portion of people who are "obese" got that way by poor diet and excersize, and a large percentage of those people will continue on that trend.

The poor diet and excersize leads to the health problems, not the obesity itself. If one were to attain obesity for whatever reason, and then begin to eat healthy and get regular excersize, even if it was only enough to balance out the input/output of food (thereby not losing any weight), one would still remain "healthy".

'lood

Every cardinal is red, does that make every red bird a cardinal?

reg

Sonic reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Alfador:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think anyone ever said that every fat person is unhealthy and every skinny person is healthy.......I'm sorry, but you just cannot argue that obesity is not a health risk.
Sonic

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Aren't those two statements contradicting each other? No one's saying that fat people aren't healthy, then saying you can't say that obesity is a health risk? Make up your mind.

I got the impression from kelood's post that the term "obesity" is not determined on the same scale and is not completely accurate.

Some people use the BMI scale, and let me tell you it is not considered to be an accurate measure of fat. All it takes into consideration is height, age and sex. It doesn't take into consideration your body mass, bone mass, and other such factors. It's ridiculous to believe, let's say for example, that my best friend, who's the same height and age as myself should weigh exactly the same as me at the "ideal" weight, when she has a very thin bone structure and mine is of a medium build. If we weighed exactly the same, she should be the obese one since she's carrying more fat that I am. Make sense? My mind moves faster than my little fingers.

Anyhoo, according to that scale, I'm obese because I'm more than 20 pounds over my "ideal" weight. Most of that is on my hips, thighs, butt and boobs. I'm a reasonably healthy girl (aside from my allergies), never broken a bone, been to the hospital, had a surgery, or had an illness worse than a stomach virus. Meanwhile my aunt (before she got pregnant) weighed a little over 100 pounds and would lack the energy to get out of bed and was constantly in the hospital and spent her junior and senior year in high school home bound.

I know we're talking about obviously fat people that you see on the street and say "oh my gawd keep her away from my whopper", but again, if they don't -want- to lose weight, they shouldn't be penalized for wanting to just live like that.

I think people who don't wash their hair everyday is a disgrace, therefore I think people who have to buy shampoo for oily hair needs to pay more tax because they let their hair get that bad.

Oh alright, not that great of an analogy, but I really don't want judgemental people dictating who should pay what and how on their own preconceived notions of how they should live. Last I remember we're not a communist country, telling me what to do. reg

Sonic reg

quote:

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I'm sorry, but you just cannot argue that obesity is not a health risk.

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Thats exactly what i'm arguing. My first point was that the magical term "obese" is very vauge, and secondly I was arguing that the simple fact of carrying more weight does not neccesarily pose a health risk.

If thats the case, then they should ban bookbags in school, and make everyone push around little carts. Because carrying 15 extra pounds is such a huge health risk.
Thier killing the children!!!

Poor diet and exercize poses a health risk. Obesity is a possible side effect of poor diet and exercize.

Tell me, alfador, how does carrying twenty extra pounds in the hips and thighs put more strain on the heart?

Also, being obese does not neccesarily raise your cholesterol or blood pressure to unhealthy levels.

'lood

reg

In case you missed it, I said that an extra 20 or so lbs isn't a big deal. I specifically said a limit as to when over, you have defintely healthy problems as 150% of your desired weight. Unless you weigh 40lbs, I do not consider an extra 20 to be a problem.

<<Also, being obese does not neccesarily raise your cholesterol or blood pressure to
unhealthy levels.>>

It most certainly contributes to raising them. If by some chance you are huge and still in the healthy range, you are just very very lucky. It's kind of like being the guy that gets shot in the forehead, only to have the bullet pass right between the lobes without causing damage. You really think everyone's gonna win that type of gamble?

Sonic reg

(Deleted a quoted post.)

[This message has been edited by CrystalTears (edited 04-04-2002).] reg

Do you even bother reading what you quote?

Sonic reg

Gotta admit... he does have a point here.

If you're supposed to weigh 100 pounds, but you weigh 150, you have a problem.

Additionally... isn't it interesting to note that today, yep... today, the IRS has termed obesity as now being a medical disease?

Well... in Canada it's long been recognized by the government as a disease, just interesting to note that while we're arguing this, a function of the U.S government has now also recognized it as one.

Bottom line... Obesity isn't healthy or even neutral, it's unhealthy.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 04-02-2002).] reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Alfador:
Do you even bother reading what you quote?

Sonic

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Do you even bother recognizing a JOKE, since people like to kid around with women about their obsession with never achieving their DESIRED weight?!

Maybe I won't participate in this thread anymore since I'm not answering in Alfador style. Later!

[This message has been edited by CrystalTears (edited 04-02-2002).] reg

quote:

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Originally posted by LordKranar:
[BIf you're supposed to weigh 100 pounds, but you weigh 150, you have a problem.
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 04-02-2002).][/B]

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One more and then I'm done...

Like Kelood says, who/what determines what you're "supposed" to weigh? reg

Sonic reg

And Crystal, it doesn't matter what we're supposed to weigh or look like. Women will never be satisfied! Even models think they're fat...If warts were in...Damn! I don't have a wart! I'm just not IT! hehe

And I think Alfie is a little sensitive because several of us picked on him for the 20lbs as fat (I think it came from the 140-150 lb women may be too big comment), when he has been saying 150% of ideal is what he's talking about.

Aerienne reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Aerienne:
And Crystal, it doesn't matter what we're supposed to weigh or look like. Women will never be satisfied! Even models think they're fat...If warts were in...Damn! I don't have a wart! I'm just not IT! hehe

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That was the jist of my joke. But since he didn't like that I used his quote to make a funny he's making a federal case out of it.

quote:

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And I think Alfie is a little sensitive because several of us picked on him for the 20lbs as fat (I think it came from the 140-150 lb women may be too big comment), when he has been saying 150% of ideal is what he's talking about.Aerienne

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I know what he's talking about. I just don't appreciate someone telling me I can't read because I used a quote and didn't reference it 100%. I used a piece of it.

Fine, I won't quote anymore. I'll just say my piece and you can figure out who I'm answering. reg

Edit- Oh yeah, who determines my ideal weight? The goverment, being in the military we have certain min weigth and max weight depending on height. for my height my min is 140s and my max is 192, if you go over you max weight you have to get body fat taken if you body fat is less that 18% your fine, if you are over your max and don't make body fat then you are conisdered overweight and steps are taken to help you lose the weight.
This is specific for each branch of the service however as they all have diferent standards.

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Anticor Rifling, Giantman Wizard

[This message has been edited by AnticorRifling (edited 04-03-2002).] reg

Overweight Americans now have a new pocketbook reason to shed some pounds. Recognizing obesity as a disease, the IRS says it will begin allowing taxpayers to claim weight loss expenses as a medical deduction. "It really opens the gate for everybody to be at a healthier weight. America really needs to wake up," said Linda Webb Carilli, a spokeswoman for Weight Watchers International Inc.

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I second Linda's comment.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg

quote:

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I know what he's talking about. I just don't appreciate someone telling me I can't read because I used a quote and didn't reference it 100%. I used a piece of it.

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I really don't think you do... I guess I need to spell it out:

I said: "I specifically said a limit as to when over, you have defintely healthy problems as 150% of your desired weight. Unless you weigh 40lbs, I do not consider an extra 20 to be a problem."

You replied: "I guess that means that almost every woman in the world has possible health risks because according to them, they are almost always more than 20 pounds over their desired weight. I know I am."

Now, unless you were attempting to insinuate that all women should have their medically desired weight to be set at 40lbs, you completely disregarded what you quoted. Where do I get 40 from? Well, I said 150% of your desired weight to be a problem, and you used 20lbs as the mode for common obesity among the worlds women. Last time I checked:

x + 20 = 1.5x

20 = .5x

40 = x

Sonic reg

quote:

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Originally posted by LordKranar:
(AP) IRS Recognizes Obesity As a Disease

Overweight Americans now have a new pocketbook reason to shed some pounds. Recognizing obesity as a disease, the IRS says it will begin allowing taxpayers to claim weight loss expenses as a medical deduction. "It really opens the gate for everybody to be at a healthier weight. America really needs to wake up," said Linda Webb Carilli, a spokeswoman for Weight Watchers International Inc.

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I see good and bad with that, there's probably so many ways to abuse that. For those that honestly use that to make themselves healither... great. reg

Sonic reg

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26805

Sonic reg

[This message has been edited by kelood (edited 04-09-2002).] reg