Just want to spark some conversation on game abuse and what the consequences should(n't) be.
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~Z reg
Please Zodier... do explain.
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg
Ranger preps Imbue, really old empath/cleric steals it with 208 and makes a wand with a huge mana capacity.
If I'm wrong jes ignore me...
-=Insomniac=- reg
reg
I honestly forgot the names of all involved, I'm sure if someone knows about this situation, they can post. A really old empath stole imbue with 208, and imbued a stick that made a rod have a lot of mana. Well...they realized, these rods sold for a LOT of coins at the pawnshop..and basically, to make a long story short, they made about 10 million in a day, repeating this process. The GMs locked nearly every character involved out. Some permanently some, others for 60 days.
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~Z reg
It wasn't the making of the big wands that was abusive, it was doing it just to sell them at the pawn shop. reg
quote:
Originally posted by Tsoran:
It wasn't the making of the big wands that was abusive, it was doing it just to sell them at the pawn shop.
Yep... living rune spell is meant to steal spells and use them so I didn't think that could be abuse and having a cleric bless the object before the ranger imbues it also doesn't seem like much for the GMs to wet their pants over, but selling them to the pawnshop for incredible amounts of silver... Yeah, that I agree is abuse.
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg
Maybe im just dumb.
I guess its abuse of game mechanics making 100 mil merchanting a day...
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'lood reg
quote:
Originally posted by kelood:
Maybe im just dumb.
Nah. Look at it this way.
The game is designed so there's no easy way to earn experience rapidly, and no easy way to earn silvers rapidly, or to get anything else of value easily.
If you suddenly found an incredibly easy way to gain something worthwhile, and it wasn't announced by Simu as being intentional, it's got to be a bug. Exploiting a bug is abuse.
Say, for example, that someone discovers some debugging code that puts 1,000,000 coins in your pocket every time you say "abracadabra 12345", and then goes and gets a couple hundred million in coins that day. Would you consider that abuse? If not, might as well stop reading here. 
That is kind of what happened here, although not quite as extreme. For argument's sake, assume the pawnshop will buy imbued wands at a value equal to the square of the number of mana it holds. A 40 mana wand yields 1600 coins. 20 mana rods yields 400 coins.
Assume someone discovers that one of the ancient 'puffs can imbue wands with 1,000 mana. The pawnshop buys them at 1,000,000 coins each. This was not intentional on Simu's part. The mechanics allow it, but Simu consider's it abuse. You found this bug and exploited it.
Now, if you want to claim that ANY of the involved parties actually thought that Simu intended for 200 year old empaths to be able to create million coin wands, and could make a rational defense of that position, then you might be able to defend their actions. But it's hard to imagine that any of them actually thought this was intentional on Simu's part.
Doing it once or twice isn't abuse. That's just experimentation. Doing it over and over is abuse. reg
If silver was equal to that equation, and people are capable of imbuing that much mana, why is it abuse?
I dont see that as abuse, because your playing by the game mechanics, your using it to your advantage, but your still playing within the system simu created.
Thats like saying getting to level 200 is game abuse.
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'lood reg
quote:
Originally posted by Tsoran:
That is kind of what happened here, although not quite as extreme. For argument's sake, assume the pawnshop will buy imbued wands at a value equal to the square of the number of mana it holds. A 40 mana wand yields 1600 coins. 20 mana rods yields 400 coins.
I can see both your point Tsoran and Kelood's point and I think it raises an interesting issue... Who's at fault here and why were the people involved in this locked out instead of the GMs taking away their silver?
Use your same logic with triple training in spells. The mechanics allow for it, but is game mechanics abuse if someone decides his entire life to triple train in spells so that at 100 trainings he will have 100 CS more then the typical double trained hunter? Was the rod selling at the pawnshop a bug in the way the pawnshop buys items, or is it simply that the formula that handles buying rods at the pawnshop such that after a certain amount of mana you get considerable amount of silver per rod? The latter isn't a bug, it's taking advantage of a system that was designed by the GMs. I don't think this example is any different from a triple trained all his life sorcerer who can Dark Catalyst any critter he hunts his age with ease.
So think about it and apply your logic to the triple trainer. Who's at fault here? And should consequences be issued?
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg
quote:
Originally posted by kelood:
If silver was equal to that equation, and people are capable of imbuing that much mana, why is it abuse?
Because when the 208 spell was created 2 years ago, they didn't realize it could be used in this way to create a virtually unlimited cash machine. It was an oversight and hence a bug.
If I discovered an ATM machine in the game, and withdrew 1,000,000,000 silvers knowing full well that this ATM should NOT be there, then I'm exploiting a bug, and their policy is clear on that. You don't have to agree with their policy. But it's their sandbox, and they make the rules.
Do you believe that 200 year old empaths should be able to create 10's of millions of coins a day in this fashion, with almost no effort?
I don't. reg
quote:
Originally posted by LordKranar:
I can see both your point Tsoran and Kelood's point and I think it raises an interesting issue... Who's at fault here and why were the people involved in this locked out instead of the GMs taking away their silver?
Simu's responsible for creating the bug, of course. But the players were responsible for exploiting it. Unless they can claim that it was actually supposed to work that way, that they thought that mega-puffs were supposed to be able to create that much cash that easily, then they are knowingly exploiting a bug. Since it's likely all the people are long term players (I don't know who was involved) it's hard to argue that they thought it was intentional. If they they didn't think it was intentional, they they were knowingly exploiting a bug.
quote:
Use your same logic with triple training in spells.
Not the same thing for a variety of reasons. Tripling spells is hardly easy. You give up a lot to do it. You're paying the price in what you give up in order to achieve a superior CS.
Is optimizing your character mechanics abuse? Of course not. But you have to pay for that optimization somehow. Days spent in the roller, giving up stat growth for early stat placement (or viceversa), and so on. The game is designed for people to hunt better with better stats. If you want to triple, so be it. Your CS based spells will be more effective. But you suffer in other ways.
quote:
Was the rod selling at the pawnshop a bug in the way the pawnshop buys items, or is it simply that the formula that handles buying rods at the pawnshop such that after a certain amount of mana you get considerable amount of silver per rod? The latter isn't a bug, it's taking advantage of a system that was designed by the GMs.
It's a bug. The GM's never considered the combination of factors that allowed the pawnshop to pay out a jackpot like that.
quote:
And should consequences be issued?
Someone found this bug (or feature) and decided to exploit it. In Simu's opinion (which I obviously share) it had to have been obvious to the people involved that this was a bug and not intentional. If it's not intentional, then it's a bug. Exploiting a bug is explicitely prohibited in the TOS, unless my memory is totally failing me. reg
quote:
It's a bug. The GM's never considered the combination of factors that allowed the pawnshop to pay out a jackpot like that.
I get it now, engennuity = game abuse
Its their sandbox, but they give us the shovel and the bucket, and now they reprimand us becuase our sandcastle is too high?
The system was set up by GM's. Thats what game testing is for. They spend a billion years testing all this stuff before they implement it. If it gets through, thats entirely the companies fault, not the players. When you design a spell like that, you better be darn sure you tested all the options. Do we have to go reporting everytime we find something that benifits us?
Now we have to ask permission to sell things at the pawn shop? To me its rediculous.
Wanna make a redux cleric? Ask simu first, they might consider it game mechanics abuse.
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'lood reg
Same thing here. Just because Simu makes a mistake doesn't give you the right to exploit it. Who decides what's a mistake? I'll give you three guesses, and they all have to start with "S". reg
if you got a loan from the bank to buy some power tools, and built three houses with those and made 500 million dollars, the bank doesnt come take your 500 million dollars away.
another thing, its not a bug.
the atm machine thing you described is not a bug.
things dont just "appear" in programs. a bug is if you deposited 1000 silvers in the bank and then could withdraw a million.
if an atm magicly appeared in gemstone, it would be either a hack/cheat/easter egg. The first being out of simu's control, and the later two being exactly what simu programmed.
it seams fair to me to assume that a wand capable of holding a huge amount of mana would be worth alot. How much is too much? Thats for the programmers to decide by their equation. If the equation is bad, fine, fix it. Take their money if you want, but dont ban them for 60 days .
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'lood reg
quote:
Originally posted by kelood:
it seams fair to me to assume that a wand capable of holding a huge amount of mana would be worth alot. How much is too much? Thats for the programmers to decide by their equation. If the equation is bad, fine, fix it. Take their money if you want, but dont ban them for 60 days .
That is where I agree with you. I think it's unfair the ban someone for like 30 days over this.
Do the GMs try and teach a lesson when they ban? Or do they want to punish you? Or do they want to keep out people who are disruptive to the game environment? I think lockouts should be only for those who are disruptive to the environment and game mechanics abuse isn't something I see that ruins peoples fun etc... The GMs can remove the silver from the character or some other penalty to undo the game mechanics abuse, but lockout? Nah...
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg
quote:
Originally posted by kelood:
its not an error. its exactly how it was programmed, as far as anyone has said.
Unless there's a hardware fault, everything a computer does is exactly how it's programmed. That hardly means there are no software or design bugs. That's why they're called bugs - the software isn't doing what you intended to do. That includes oversights in the design of the software.
Yes, they intended the pawnshop to give out more money for better wands. No, they did not intend for it to give out THAT much money. They screwed it up, and put in place a combination of systems that individually worked fine. But in the right combination, they did not. That's a bug.
Unless you come up with a really good argument otherwise, this is my last post on the issue. You may have the last word.
reg
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Man of many opinions reg
quote:
Originally posted by Tsoran:
If a bank makes an error and credits a million dollars to your account, and you withdraw that money, have you committed a crime? The answer is yes.
Actually...
This happened to me before in a checking account. The bank somehow added 52.00 dollars to my account, well it ended up, I used it simply because I use a debit card for everything.
The bank did not call the police and demand the money back instantly. They did catch it and it was simply deducted from my account. No felony charges. THAT is what should have happened. The silvers should have been removed and deducted from the account balance and the players should have remained in game.
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~Z reg
false. It was intended to do that.
I dont see how you can say its a bug?
Its not a bug, its not a glich in the program, its the program working the way it was meant to.
a bug is meaning to type x++ and instead typing y++, its running into a wall and falling off the screen, its not
well, we worked out this equation
x = mana/r^2, 10 years later:
"Wait, i don't like what your doing with that, ban em all!!!"
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'lood reg
Killers of feed-it-mor BANNED
Elanthia-- This just in, the alleged "murderers" of the feed - it- mor have been banned from the lands for 60 days.
As Banthis said "the fethdimor was designed to kill everyone and be unkillable, this, as you all know, was not the case. This is blatant game mechanics abuse and will not be tolerated."
reg
RPing is all based on creativity and there are alot of creative people out there. Personally I think to GM's just got pissed cuase they got out smarted. I know when I'm playing some other RP game and I out smart the GM I usually get punished some how in the game.
Second of all... If these people didn't figure out this bug it could have gone un-noticed. Not a good thing really... it was eventually going to be found out. Now on a side note to that. I also think that the peole involved with it had an obligations to alert the GM's about it... but then again on the arguement side. Something like that is iffy. I might not have called that a bug. maybe it was something a GM was just waiting for someone to find as a reward... or could have been a trap to try to ban alot of older characters.
I'm not sure that you could tell that it was a serious bug or that it was nessarily wrong and I have a case in point cause I came acrossed a bug myself
I rerolled a character of mine that was level 33 and a master in Voln. This was shortly after they revamped the rolling and training mechanics. I got done rerolling my character and I relaized I was still a master in Voln and had use of all the symbols and got the same amount of favor for killing creatures my age at level 1-3(until the GM finally kicked me up of Voln) But as soon as I knew I was still a master I reported but I kept using the symbols all the way up till they kicked me out. I could tell that it was a bug because there is no level 1 character that should be a master in Voln where as getting a ton of coins for a wand... like I said... its kind of iffy. And even though I reported the bug I kept using the symbols up until the GM took them away from me. The people involved with the wands should have reported it but kept using it up until the GM's fixed it.
Not to mention there is no reward in reporting a bug. I didn't get a damn thing for telling the GM I was still in Voln. I could have probably gone on and stayed a Master in Voln and eventually when I got to level 20 or so it would have been resonable idea that I was a master. Its not to hard to master Voln by 20 levels if you work on it.
So in short part of being a GM is that you aren't perfect and there are mistakes that are made. Role playing is all about being creative and if you take that away Role playing isn't the same then.
So if you want to shun those who found out and used 208 to make sellable wands. Leave your brains at the door cause RPing thrives on creativity. I think the GM's should have rewarded them for find it out instead of banning them.
The only thing I see that they did wrong was that they didn't report it. Otherwise it was all in the name of the game
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Ikenn, Death Ranger reg
If this isn't abuse, WHAT is abuse? I know Simu's policy, like many of theirs, is very unclear or 'grey?'
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~Z reg
I walk in the drug store and see a bubble gum machine. There is a big sticker on the side that says 25 cents each. I pop in a quarter, and out comes a bubbble gum ball.
Next day, I walk in with a bag of quarters. I put in 100, and get 100 gum balls. I clean em out, theres no more left.
Third day, I walk in and the bubble gum machine is filled up again. This time, i put one quarter in and get 3 gum balls. I look for the store clerk, i dont see one. I look for a camera, dont see one. I put in 33 quarters and get 99 gum balls, clean the thing out.
The third is bug abuse.
Game mechanics abuse is a bit oxymoronic i believe.
If game mechanics are set up a certain way, using them in that way is not abuse. Getting 100 gum balls for 100 quarters is not abuse. Its exactly how the system should work.
There is bug abuse. There is not game mechanics abuse[99.98% of the time].
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'lood reg
edge reg
Immy reg
- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg
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'lood reg
First, if you want to GM bash, go to my folders hehe.
Second, about this topic....
At the time of this happening the old enchanting system was in effect.
Dizman had about 2.5 per level of mana share. All of them were members of CoL, and this was before the Well of life restrictions were put in place. The 4 of these people with a handful of clerics to well Dizman could produce absolutely fantastic amounts of mana every day. Couple that with the private node, together they could mint 2 to 3 10x enchants every 12 hours.
This was 2 or 3 years ago. 10x items sold for a LOT Of cash back then, MUCH more than they do now. The 4 of them made 10 mil a 12 hour period selling the rods. They could have made in access over 50 mil in a 12 hour period doing the enchanting. They simply got bored of the broken enchanting system so they used the broken imbue system
Ironicaly, they soon would have sold 10x stuff to everyone that could afford it, and would have to have dropped down to mass production of lower enchanted items. Eventualy they would have become the sole providers of enchants for the game, and they would have put every GM merchant out of buiseness because they could produce more faster and cheaper.
But, what's the fun in that?
-Dantrotic the spy reg
"Hello world!"
and to be the major tension breaker in this topic. Seems people are starting to take this argument personally so I felt a little stupidity was needed to break through the digital turmoil.
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Caels Onae'Rae
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"Light the path through darkness with the light of friendship." reg