The Players Corner Archive

The truth? I fell asleep behind the wheel at around 4 this morning. *blush* Dumb way to get a warning but hell, I deserve that one.

In case anyone was out and about in the catacombs, I was the reason for that invasion down there... they decided to test me with pale crabs and giant ants where normally giant rats only live.

Heh... one rat even screamed ouch when I killed it. I wish I had been awake to see that. Other rats were being like inanimate objects, when I tried to attack I couldn't... I lunged forward and attacked the giant rat mercilessly.

Anyhow, today's lesson learned? I need to move my laptop off my bed so this stupid stuff don't happen.

Will I actually heed this? Prolly not. Too lazy and dun wanna change my whole set up in the room just for one incidence.

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Caels Onae'Rae
AIM : Caels OnaeRae
MSN : Caels_Onaerae@hotmail.com
ICQ : 91446467
Yahoo!: caels_onaerae reg

I guess I'll just never understand the whole scripting thing.

-Revalos reg

As for me, it would take me longer to figure out a script than it would be to type it out manually since I type very fast and rarely make a typo error. I'm a dunce when it comes to creating scripts. So I do what I do best - type.

I have no problem with people who want to script hunt. Hunting can be monotonous. As long as they're watching the screen, they can script to their heart's content and it won't make any difference to me.

But Caels - I'm surprised at you! Bad boy, bad! It's great that you just owned up to it and took your lumps though. Proves that some people can accept and work with the system even if the system comes down on them for messing up.

Congrats on finally breaking your perfect record - you're one of the crowd now!

R - who had 3 official warnings in the time she spent regularly in GS, and none during the occasional visit in the past 2 years.
reg

*shrugs*

I script because the programming aspect gives me more to do. I enjoy programming, even though I am novice at it. I taught myself on BASIC and Q-BASIC. A couple of years ago I started dabbling in C++ and then moved to web design and such, but I haven't been studying up on it like I should.

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Caels Onae'Rae
AIM : Caels OnaeRae
MSN : Caels_Onaerae@hotmail.com
ICQ : 91446467
Yahoo!: caels_onaerae reg

Asmodea Drey'Haus reg

Not to sound like a prick or anything but...

There's a HUGE HUGE difference between scripting in GS and programming software in C++.

I'd put scripting on the same level as perhaps HTML coding or browser scripting.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg

Sonic reg

GS Scripting is very much like BASIC. reg

I consider it programming because I am using a pseudo-language to send commands to an engine to do something productive.

Taken from www.dictionary.com

quote:

---

tr.v. pro·grammed, or pro·gramed pro·gram·ming, or pro·gram·ing pro·grams or pro·grams
To include or schedule in a program: program a new musical composition.
To design a program for; schedule the activities of.
To provide (a machine) with a set of coded working instructions.
To train to perform automatically in a desired way, as if programming a machine: programmed the children to use perfect table manners.
To prepare an instructional sequence for (material to be taught) in programmed instruction.

---

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Caels Onae'Rae
AIM : Caels OnaeRae
MSN : Caels_Onaerae@hotmail.com
ICQ : 91446467
Yahoo!: caels_onaerae reg

The definition from dictionary.com is so vague it would suggest that moving a mouse around is programming since technically you're doing everything the definition states is programming.

Programming is assembling instructions for the processor/OS to process. Scripting is assembling instructions for a program to execute.

That's why I say there's a big difference. When programming you really have to know how the operating system works as well as the hardware and how to make use of them. When scripting you don't need any of that.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg

Not really. Maybe with low level languages, but not all languages are low level, and not all require alot of knowledge of hardware or operating systems (Visual Basic and Java come to mind, even though java is very very similiar to c++ syntax wise)

Besides, scripting is a great excersize for learning programming logic, one of the hardest things for some people to grasp about programming. The limited command base helps in that regard. I like the limited command base for another reason. It challenges you in ways that you aren't normally challenged when programming. Simple things like adding two numbers takes lines of code in the script language.

The draw for scripting for me is not watching scripts hunt for me, thats boring.

The reason i make scripts is the actually coding process, not the end result of my labor.

Its amazing to me to look back on some of my first hunting scripts-- and i came into scripitng with a good programming background-- and what my scripts look like today. I'm not only a better scripter, but a better programmer. My first hunting scripts were pages and pages and 10-20K of text. The last version of my nexhunt script was less than 2K .

'lood

reg

Java is still a scripting language, you're telling the browsers java plugin how to execute operations...

And believe it or not, Visual BASIC is at the heart of Windows. As easy as it may seem to modify Windows objects in Visual BASIC, all those objects are core windows objects since Windows is by nature object oriented.

<< one of the hardest things for some people to grasp about programming. >>

I would disagree. The hardest thing to adapt to is structure. Handling functions and routines, objects and structures, loops and conditions...

I've seen GS scripting, and the structure of that is pretty much match this then goto here, match that then goto there.

That kind of logic would get you killed if you decided to go into C++ and try programming. Heck, it would get you killed doing Java!

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 10-23-2001).] reg

I have been in systems development for 12 years and there are all different kinds of programming.

I rate the level of programming on a spectrum. At one end of the spectrum, you have basic scripts such as scripts in Gemstone on the other side of the spectrum there would be core programming languages ranging from assembler to C. In the middle, you would have languages such as Visual Basic, Java, Powerbuilder, etc.

Some of the languages depending on how they are used can be debated on how far they would be on the spectrum from the center to left or right but that isn't important.

All that is important is that people do learn how to organize their thoughts, they are able to tell a computer what to do and these scripts do have some type of functionality which serve as a very basic program.
reg

You most definitely are correct!

<< All that is important is that people do learn how to organize their thoughts, they are able to tell a computer what to do and these scripts do have some type of functionality which serve as a very basic program. >>

I can tell a computer what to do using Adobe Photoshop or even by moving a mouse around, however that isn't programming.

We have to remain within reasonable context here in order to discuss what constitutes programming, and what constitutes scripting. You could very well argue that moving a mouse around, or using a word processor, or making flash applets is programming, but relative to what a compiler or interpretor does, or what software found in the programming section of a computer store does, it simply is unreasonable to call it that.

Now as for learning... I think it would be a mistake to learn scripting before programming.

The reason is the same as what they say about driving, "Get it right the first time!". Otherwise you can develop really bad habits that kill you. Scripting (especially GS scripting!) isn't structured programming, there are no objects, no arrays, no structures (reffering to the data element definition of a structure), no functions or procedures...

It's a series of "if this then goto here", which among programmers has a name...

Spagetthi code!

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 10-23-2001).] reg

We have to remain within reasonable context here in order to discuss what constitutes programming, and what constitutes scripting. You could very well argue that moving a mouse around, or using a word processor, or making flash applets is programming, but relative to what a compiler or interpretor does, or what software found in the programming section of a computer store does, it simply is unreasonable to call it that.<<

I thought I was being reasonable. I never suggested using excel or any other program other than a programming language was considered programming.

>>Now as for learning... I think it would be a mistake to learn scripting before programming.<<

I disagree. People don't need to be taught another procedural or some type of object oriented language to learn how to be good programmers. What is important in being a great developer is how well you can organize your thoughts and develop those thoughts into a program. Their program should then be fairly easily maintainable, easy to follow and meet the objective of why it was developed in the first place. I tend to believe the first place where people have the worse problem is formulating a solution in how to write the program to meet the requirement.

>>Scripting (especially GS scripting!) isn't structured programming, there are no objects, no arrays, no structures (reffering to the data element definition of a structure), no functions or procedures...<<

Never said it met any of these requirements but it is considered programming in it's simplest terms.

>>It's a series of "if this then goto here", which among programmers has a name...
Spagetthi code!<<

Maybe you need to do some work on some real computer systems and you will see using "If then else goto" type of logic isn't always considered spaghetti code. Using the term goto in a program never suggests the program is spaghetti code either.

When I think of a program that I would consider spaghetti code is as follows:

1. Where the program starts in one location of the program and then recursively goes through sections of code that may or may not be useful to the program.

2. Where a program has no clear direction in that the person who developed the program maybe had logic going from point "A" to point "Z". But, over time through maintenance, the direction of the program became harder and harder to figure out how it got from point "A" to point "Z" because now you are going through other points that show no clear connection going to point "Z".

3. This one is bad. . . I have seen programs that have on purpose started in one section that immediately direct the program to another section to do the main processing and then branch back to another section of the program while falling through other sections while initializing variables to keep the program from abending. I usually rewrite these programs if I or one of the people on my team have the time to rewrite the program. They are just pure ugly.

I could give you a lot more examples of these from a procedural to object oriented language perspective. I have seen more than my fair share and I hate saying it but I will continue to see it until the day I stop developing and maintaining systems.

Poor coding styles exist in people coming out of college all the way to veteran developers who have been in the industry 15 years or more. The best way to develop coding styles isn't from just developing code but to actually maintaining a system which you may or may not have put into a production environment. Also, good coding styles come from seeing the mistakes other people made which you have to correct because it keeps you up late at night.

What I do today when writing a program is due to all the nasty night calls I got from other programs which people developed which I am responsible today.

I have mentored college grads and have gotten the same response everytime that their way is best, first thing I tell them is what they learned in college was nice but then show them how it is really done (Programming wise). It is hard for them at first but over time they always realize the technics they learned in college usually are not standard for the workplace. reg

quote:

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Originally posted by LordKranar:
It's a series of "if this then goto here", which among programmers has a name...

Spagetthi code!

---

Tell me, does JMP mean anything to you? reg

quote:

---

Originally posted by LordKranar:
Java is still a scripting language, you're telling the browsers java plugin how to execute operations...

---

JavaScript, which has nothing to do with Sun Java, is indeed a scripting language. JavaScript was originally made by Netscape, and was, IIRC, called HotScript.

Java, on the other hand, is a programming language. Java source code is compiled into bytecode, or what's pretty much machine code for a "Java virtual machine". Obviously, there is Java Virtual Machine, and thus, no computer that runs the code as-is, but as a result, the code is platform independant. An interpreter then executes the bytecode. That's why Java is such a slow language, too much stuff is done on the fly.

Just because it's high-level code doesn't mean it's not programming. reg

Assembly isn't structured programming, it's the next furthest thing you can get from structured programming (binary being the furthest). The points made in this arguement have nothing to do with assembly and trust me, you don't want assembly to be part of this discussion if you're argueing that scripting and programming are on the same level.

This discussion is more on the issue of how high level is too high level to be considered programming? My arguement is that it's too high when you're no longer instructing the operating system, but instead instructing software.

<< I disagree. People don't need to be taught another procedural or some type of object oriented language to learn how to be good programmers. What is important in being a great developer is how well you can organize your thoughts and develop those thoughts into a program. >>

I'm not discussing developing software, I'm discussing learning how to program. Devoloping software takes much more than programming, you can be part of a developing team and not know a thing about any programming language.

And also... if you believe you don't need to know object oriented programming and survive as a programmer in this day and age to be successful, then so be it... I strongly disagree but it's not worth getting into. I think that arguement is very much stretching it though and very unreasonable.

<< I have mentored college grads and have gotten the same response everytime that their way is best, first thing I tell them is what they learned in college was nice but then show them how it is really done (Programming wise). It is hard for them at first but over time they always realize the technics they learned in college usually are not standard for the workplace. >>

The day Microsoft stops looking for people at the University of Waterloo who on average make 50k a year on co-op will be the day I accept the statement that University poorly teaches how to program.

The fact that you're mentoring them would suggest that you're arguement is based on the percentage of students who have difficulty in programming. If you're general arguement is based on a specific group of people who require mentoring, then your arguement is flawed in that there are many more students who go to university and college who do well with the skills they learn who don't go for mentoring.

<< Maybe you need to do some work on some real computer systems and you will see using "If then else goto" type of logic isn't always considered spaghetti code. Using the term goto in a program never suggests the program is spaghetti code either. >>

The computer infront of me is a real computer system. Any computer that takes in input and produces output is a real computer system. Don't know what this has to do with programming though since I could do real work on a computer system not involving programming at all.

Let's straighten this discussion out just a bit...

We have to stick to programming here, not developing software, not what makes a software good or creative. We have to discuss what is considered programming, and what is considered scripting, and how they differentiate from one another or if they even differentiate.

My arguements are as follows, you are free to debate them but keep it to the arguements themselves:

- Scripting is just as much programming as wordprocessing is drawing in Adobe Photoshop. They are relatively unrelated and being good in one is independent of being good in the other. Perhaps those who are good in one are also good in the another, but they are not directly related.

- If you can make a script that hunts the rift and gets you from 135 to 136 without you having to type a word... this will not reflect or help you whatsoever in your ability to code something simple like a tilemap engine.

- Scripting is strictly kept to telling software how to behave, whereas programming is telling the operating system and hardware how to operate.

- The best way to learn programming is by learning structured programming, getting to know your operating system and getting to know your hardware. Scripting does not allow you to do these as it's kept strictly to informing software how to operate. For the sake of semantics we will use the conventional term for structured programming, for which assembly is not a member of. I must repeat that these arguements here do not apply to assembly since it's on a level of its own.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 10-23-2001).] reg

I thought I'd also throw this in... I know you wish to show your level of experience, and this is respectable... however your experience doesn't exactly help your arguement. I could easily find 100s of programmers with more experience who would argue the opposite, and you could probably find 100s that would defend your arguement.

So once again for the sake of clarity, let's try and keep the arguement focused on what constitutes scripting, what constitutes programming, and why they are or are not on two different levels of skill and concept.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg

I believe this is where your argument is flawed. In no such circumstance are you required to know how the operating system or hardware operate.

Step outside of the box and take off your blinders. The operating system is there to provide an environment for programs to run. Now where do you as a developer override how the operating system will work but instead you are working within the rules of the operating system.

The same goes for hardware, you just pass instructions from the program to the operating system which in turn will tell the hardware what to do.

As to your other comments in regard to mentoring. These people were excellent developers and the reason for mentoring is only to help them adapt to a production environment. College only teaches the basics and never prepares the students for every single production environment out there.

Microsoft isn't everything and I am sure one day people will realize no new ideas come from this company but instead the company steals ideas from other companies.

[This message has been edited by Mallagra (edited 10-23-2001).] reg

quote:

---

Originally posted by LordKranar:
<< I have been in systems development for 12 years and there are all different kinds of programming. >>

I thought I'd also throw this in... I know you wish to show your level of experience, and this is respectable... however your experience doesn't exactly help your arguement. I could easily find 100s of programmers with more experience who would argue the opposite, and you could probably find 100s that would defend your arguement.

So once again for the sake of clarity, let's try and keep the arguement focused on what constitutes scripting, what constitutes programming, and why they are or are not on two different levels of skill and concept.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

---

I am only demonstrating the fact, I do have experience with what I do and I am not a novice in this conversation.
reg

http://www.webreview.com/2000/10_20/strategists/10_20_00_3.shtml

That's the simplest site I can find that outlines why one is independent of the other.

There are however many others...

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg

You can't program Windows without using Windows classes. If you don't know what the various Windows classes do, then you won't be able to program Windows since Windows is by nature object oriented. It's impossible to make a windows program without doing object oriented programming which is why earlier I said you're stretching it by claiming that you can be a good programmer and not know OOP.

In DOS you're allowed to suspend execution of the operating system by entering protected mode. If you don't know how DOS works, you won't know why there is protected mode, or even how to make use of it, or what advantages it gives.

None of what I said above about operating systems can be said of scripting languages...

Especially the one in GS!!!

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 10-23-2001).] reg

Java (not a scripting language as Gnomad pointed out, it has arrays, sets up functions, does I/O , complicated graphics, sound, etc. etc. Very very much like C+) is totally platform independant (again, as Gnomad pointed out) and requires no knowledge of hardware or operating systems.

If you say learning logic from scripting does not help you develop programming skills you are either a poor programmer, or have a natural feel for programming logic.

Just because you can't make a tilemap engine in GS scripting doesn't mean it isn't programming.

Don't make me go back to the foundation of all programming (punchcards and the whole nine yards).

Programming isn't about commands and procedures. Its not about structure and loops and organizing code.

Its about logic; its about taking thoughts in your head-- a general picture, an abstract idea-- and breaking it down into steps that you can put into code.

Its thinking.

Thats what you really need to be able to do to program. All the other stuff is bullsh*t. We're getting to the core of programming here.

Now, you can fake it. You can go through programming the "this command does that , ok use it, this is how this guy set up his program, blah blah blah"

Thats the , copy-the-other-persons-program-but-change-the-variable-names programming.

And theirs plenty of jobs for that type of person. Microsoft will pay 50K a year for you to do exactly that.

But, what happens when you want to do something nobody has ever done before?

And thats what seperates the men from the boys so to speak.

But all this is moot. GS Scripting has helped my programming, if it hasn't helped yours, your either way too advanced for any little thing like that to be of any help-- or you cheated yourself on a good opportunity for growth...

'lood
either way, im done with this debate.

reg

Programmers who are like that... don't make it very far...

It's just like a person who's all around good with math because his mind is clear and focused and he's good at planning out his thoughts, but when it comes to actually figuring out how to solve a differential equation asks:

"What's a derivative?"

Same thing here... a person might be really good at solving problems, going from point A to point B, and he would be a good scripter I suppose... but when it comes time to make a 3D vector engine, would be dead lost and dead unsuccessful, if only because he doesn't have a damn clue how to optimize his code due to his lack of hardware knowledge or doesn't know what kind of data elements to use because all he does know how to write are scripts where If this happens, then goto here.

<< GS Scripting has helped my programming, if it hasn't helped yours, your either way too advanced for any little thing like that to be of any help-- or you cheated yourself on a good opportunity for growth... >>

Kelood... sorry to say this but you've admitted to me you're not a good programmer, and that's why you're still doing Visual BASIC. It really isn't special that scripting has helped you program the absolute dead easiest programming language there is. If Windows died, so would your ability to program. I don't think you'd last very long in Linux or DOS with knowledge of how to program VB since in VB you can get away with not knowing what several Windows functions are, and you have told me you can't do anything neat in C++.

Now if I'm wrong and scripting has helped you code in other languages... I'd like to know exactly where it's helped you by showing actual coding examples.

<< Visual Basic, a programming language made purely for windows, by the developers of windows, can be programmed in without any knowledge of the windows operating system, its classes/api's/conventions/ etc. >>

This is wrong... Even in Visual BASIC you assign window width, window height, the various windows buttons, the various menues...

Guess what? All those are part of the Windows class! I said you can get away with not knowing how to use many Windows Classes in VB, but that doesn't mean you're not using them. Plus, maybe you don't know what an API is because VB is a great point and click language, but without an API, you don't have a program. A program to run in Windows requires an API.

That's usually why Visual BASIC is considered a poor programming language and you don't hear of it being used in any mainstream software. It's good for making stuff like a calculator, or maybe even minesweeper, or games you find on those CDs with like 300 shareware games for 5 bucks... but good luck trying to make file sharing software using it or a zip file decoder.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 10-24-2001).] reg

Yeah... you just head out and find good scripters who know how to use VB...

Forget all those with extended knowledge of how the computer operates, how to make excellent use of structures and classes, how to properly optimize their code and who know their operating system. Those folks are so newbie...

Believe me... what seperates the big guys from the little guys is knowledge of computer system, not scripting.

The little guy works on ways to hunt rats in 20-30 lines, the big guy is too busy working on optimizing his shading renderer or making use of the newest and hottest 3d accelerator.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 10-24-2001).] reg

Your getting lost in the trees. I believe the point which is being made is that scripting is on the simplest terms, programming. I read the article and I agreed to most of what the article communicated but I disagreed with the one aspect that javascript or vbscripting isn't programming.

As a developer, I do all forms of systems development and it amazes me to what levels of development I need to be involved in. It goes from setting up scripts to writing very complexed system routines but at all levels, this is considered programming.

In all these different levels of programming from corporate mainframe to client-server enterprise systems, I have never once been required to have an extensive knowledge of the operating system nor hardware. I do care about it but I am never required to know every nuance.

What is important is putting your ideas down and understanding how to use the language to best develop your solution to meet the end-user's needs. reg

I've never said i was a bad programmer, in fact im a damn good programmer. You'd be surprised what i can do with the clunky newbie visual basic language.

What i did say was that I didn't know C++ very well. That is all i said.

And lets not get into your points about optimization, i did test your graphics engine afterall

And about seeing code samples of how gs scripting has helped me program, your missing the whole point again. Its back to the monkey see monkey do programming.

Its about thinking, its not about commands.

And not to strike a personal chord or anything, but didn't you come to me with the IM "Whats an anti-derivative?"

And i consider myself the focused all around math person ( person in general).

'lood

reg

a quick search on hotjobs came back with 876 jobs for visual basic programmers, 1000 for C++. Not bad for the newbie windows only language that is useless to learn and nobody programs in except freeware companies and little kids in their basement...

'lood

reg

Fine, let's use another example...

Someone whose really good at math but then asks what's sigma notation when asked to figure out the sum of a geometric sequence?

I could think of other examples too... the point is that unless you know the specifics of programming, you won't get very far at all when it comes time to code.

<< And lets not get into your points about optimization, i did test your graphics engine afterall >>

Stating you've seen the Ultraverse is not an arguement as to the importance of optimization and hardware knowledge when programming. It's a good way to try to hide the arguement however. If you wish to avoid it so be it, but you have not made any arguement against it.

<< And about seeing code samples of how gs scripting has helped me program, your missing the whole point again. >>

What I'm doing is putting you on the spot since you decided to put your own experience into the debate. If you truely are such a good programmer as you claim, then I'd appreciate seeing the code (preferably a text file) from both a Visual BASIC program as well as a GS script.

I'm saying there is a big difference between someone who's making hunting scripts for GS and someone who's programming a software engine (at the core of any decent program is an engine). If you're interested in programming decent software, your best option is to start with programming, and not with scripting.

<< What is important is putting your ideas down and understanding how to use the language to best develop your solution to meet the end-user's needs. >>

This is because you're not debating as much about programming than you are debating about developing software. That's why I asked that we stick to programming, rather than discuss planning, or pseudocode, or brainstorming...

There are many more elements than simply programming when developing software. Infact the people who plan out the software aren't always the ones who code it, in many cases they don't know how. Bill Gates isn't much of a programmer anymore, but he is a software architech.

When it comes time to code, you're going to need someone with the specific skills and knowledge who can take your design and make the computer do it.

<< Not bad for the newbie windows only language that is useless to learn and nobody programs in except freeware companies and little kids in their basement... >>

I don't know man... when the name is BASIC and the B stands for beginner's... to me that implies a newbie programmer.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg

Yeah... and by your own logic you should be very good with C++ since programming is more about thinking than applying.

If really the most challening aspect of programming is the ability to think, then you should have no problems doing C++, and I know you tried doing C++ because we talked about it many times a long time ago before I even worked recoded the Ultraverse in Protected Mode.

You however are not alone. It frustrates people to the point of giving up not knowing how hardware works, and they realize that programming isn't for them.

I'd say that the reason you can't do C++ isn't because you lack the ability to think, or to problem solve, or organizaion... but instead because you don't know how to make the computer take your ability to problem solve and use it like you do. Otherwise you'd be just as good at C++ as in VB, or heck, half as good atleast.

Computer programmers are to software development as engineers are to construction.

An engineer isn't he who comes up with a really cool idea or has a plan, that's what the architech does, the engineer is the one who takes the design and turns it into something physical. Coming up with the idea and design is only half the solution, the other half is in constructing it.

The fact that you can't do C++, demonstrates that there is WAY more to programming than knowing how to problem solve...

It's about taking the solution and constructing something with it.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 10-24-2001).] reg

How can anyone debate with someone else who pulls bits and pieces of my thoughts out of contect to prove they are correct.

Gemstone scripts may not be C++, Java, visual basic or even COBOL for that matter but in the basic concept of programming, I believe it is programming. It may not be very complex, may not use Arrays, Data elements or call objects or subroutines, but it does demonstrate the use of simple If-then-else type of logic.

Programming does not just focus on how one writes the code. It takes more than that and in the case of scripting, it is programming in some respect because the person is able to accomplish some type of goal.

Next, you will be telling people that back in the 60s punching cards, or even setting switchings such as some of the first mainframe computers in the mid 50s to early 70s that they really weren't programming either. Best example would probably be the UNIVACs systems. <shudder> So, glad I never programmed back then what we have today is so much easier than what people had back then.

I am out of here . . . reg

That was pure programming... and punchcards can still be done in a way in this day and age. All punchcards were were instructions in binary code, you can use DOS Debugger to write instructions in binary or convert the opcode to hex and write it in a hexeditor. Heck, you can write in binary in most languages today by poking the instruction directly in RAM.

Punchcards are a great example of how programming is about the computer, not about the thinking. You can't do any of it unless you know exactly how the computer works, you need to know 10 times more about the computer working with punchcards than when working in C++. The various RAM segments, all the opcodes, the registers (remember, there are no variables in binary), theres so much stuff you need to know it drives people nuts.

Maybe some guy is really good at planning and thinking "Well first we should do this, then move to this", and he can come up with the design, but then moving on to the next step and saying that in 1s and 0s and trying to teach the computer to do that is a whole other ballpark.

<< I refuse to debate this anymore with someone who is ignorant on understanding the different spectrums of programming languages.
How can anyone debate with someone else who pulls bits and pieces of my thoughts out of contect to prove they are correct. >>

No one is making you debate. It makes no sense to say that "I refuse to debate with someone who doesn't agree with what I'm saying because he's stupid." Obviously I disagree, where there is no disagreement, there is no debate.

I'm making a point that this so called spectrum ends after a certain point. That point, the focus of my arguement is that when you're no longer telling the computer what to do, but instead telling a piece of software what to do, you've reached that point. You're so far away from the middle (a reasonable point) of the spectrum that if you were to decide at some point to program somewhere in the middle of this spectrum you'd be on the same level as the guy who never scripted.

Thus... if you wish to learn how to program, do it right. Download DJGPP or Java or another respectable compiler and get started. It's much more fun, challenging, and rewarding than watching your character kill rats.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 10-24-2001).] reg

Proves to me how much you don't understand. I won't take the time to explain hopefully one day you will understand. reg

Here's an example...

Say you wish to make a simple routine that sends out a value of 5 to port 5 for your program because your program makes constant use of this procedure and you have a very limited compiler that doesn't have an OUT routine or inline assembler but does have the ability to poke RAM...

This can be done by entering DOS debugger (debug) and entering the code in assembly. Looking like this, I just copied and pasted it from the debugger.

-a
1178:0100 mov dx,5
1178:0103 mov al,5
1178:0105 out dx,al
1178:0106

Next step is to take the above and unassemble it to get the hex equivalent of the above.

1178:0100 BA3A0C MOV DX,0C3A
1178:B005 MOV AL,05
1178:0105 EE OUT DX,AL

The number next to the address is the number you make use of, that number is the actual hex code for the operation. Now you copy those numbers down in that order and you can use them in the compiler of your choice by setting a variable to the hex value, and passing execution of the program to the RAM segment that contains the above instructions.

In our example we have three different operations to perform so we need 3 different variables as well as an array that will keep track of the location of these variables in RAM.

Should look something like this:

int x = 0xBA3A0C;
int y = 0xB005;
int z = 0xEE;

Next step is to poke the hex values above into an array so that we can transfer control to it later.

int exeadd[2]; // 3 elements, one for each hex code

poke *exeadd[0], *exeadd[0], x;
poke *exeadd[0], *exeadd[1], y;
poke *exeadd[0], *exeadd[2], z;

//the RAM segment is where the first element of the array is located, the location is the element we're poking, and the value is the instruction we want to poke

Last step is to pass control over to the above operations.

pass_absolute 3, *exeadd[0]; // This passes the programs control to the location of exeadd[0], it will run 3 operations.

And that's how it's done in simple pseudocode...

Mostly I program various engines, 3d engines, tilemap engines, some neat algorithms if I'm bored... The engine I'm most proud of is The Ultraverse Engine.

You're free to check them out if you're so convinced I don't know much. I also like teaching and helping others with getting their ideas out of their brain and into the computer, that's what facinates me most about programming.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 10-24-2001).] reg

Would I like to be a better programmer, sure. Am I willing to spend countless hours teaching myself how to code, not recently. The Army takes up all my time. I still play with code every once in a while, but I am quickly forgetting even the things I taught myself.

I consider myself a good scripter, but not in terms of efficiency or output, but in the fact that my scripts are unique. I have my own way of thinking with scripts and I often include my own little RP scenes in scripts. I can do almost anything you want with a script, but it may take me some time to sort through everything and build it.

And please stop throwing stones at each other over who is the better programmer, its really rediculous considering that to prove it would be quite difficult. Besides, no one really cares who is the best at code.

------------------
Caels Onae'Rae
AIM : Lord Caels
MSN : Caels_Onaerae@hotmail.com
ICQ : 91446467
Yahoo!: caels_onaerae reg

True... but I really take it to heart when someone tells me I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to programming.

I thought it was a pointless comment to make so I wasn't gonna let it slide without proving him wrong.

A lot of what I learned about programming I learned from arguements on BBSs. Some would get real nasty and very competitive, but there was always some good info in there.

I also think by providing an example it also showed how programming hardware differs greatly from making a script for a program.

I'll be damned if there is a scripting language that has something like assembly...

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 10-24-2001).] reg

I was only supporting the stance that scripting is considered programming but unfortunately Kranar thinks otherwise.

I stopped debated because it's useless to when someone doesn't understand. reg

That's right... I don't understand... If that's what you wanted to hear then so be it:

"Your kung fu is better than mine."

Happy now? Discussion is pretty much over.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 10-24-2001).] reg