The Players Corner Archive

I learned about this after talking to a few folks on Instant messenges and thought I would add a few thoughts on an issue I think is just a symptom of how the game of Gemstone has gone.

I roleplay my character to point out hiders he see's and have seen others do the same over the years, but more recently I am noticing a marked trend in player behavior regarding this roleplay choice. I hear constant calls of harassment and disruption. How is someone roleplaying to watch another person in the world of Elanthia disrupting another person if they can't hide well enough to avoid being noticed?

I have posted this same concern on the unofficial boards awhile back and didn't get much in return on opinions.

I notice that people want to ignore their characters training regiment and will just state "don't point" or "resting" to get around the hiding mechanics that are in place if another character wishes to respond to seeing them with a point at their character. I do realize the game mechanics are limited and there is not a watch command (as in watch :character name and the only way you can watch that other character is to point. Some will state that pointing is rude. I would agree if that were the case and it was done out in the open. But again the very same game mechanics are a bit artificial and can't always be taken so literally when viewed by the character.

When thinking back to the earlier years in Gemstone I remember quite clearly people would always point out those they saw hide and it never was a big issue. The practice made common sense and I think represented very accurately what you would do in the same situation in real life.

I have been told via Feedback if people constantly hide when you point them out that I am to report their behavior as disruptive and not the other way around, but the problem is so many people do not understand the logic behind the roleplay.

Just because you want your character to hide, does not imply some game rule right for it to be so. It is a roleplay action and can by replied with a equally roleplayed response that shows that another character might want to watch you etc. When these very same players report and assist that they are being harassed I am amazed that the GM's don't do more to explain to them the choice they made when training their character and the logic of hiding around an area where others can see them and point them out if they wish to.

What I would like is for a policy that clearly states this to the players. I see quite a bit inconsistent approaches by some GM's when dealing with this. Head of feedback says one thing and GM Andraste says another.

If it is the player's right to hide wherever they want without any right for others to point them out then the game has evolved to an ooc function. Take away the ability for characters to notice hiding and the ability to point at another.

I am not stating everyone has to point at those who hide around them, but it should be a choice that is well within the rules for someone who does.

I'll try commenting on a few other issues soon since I noticed this bulletin board holds true to no censorship. The official and even the unofficial have really gone down hill with heavy handed censorship.

Check Six,

Darren reg

I don't understand why you can't just mind your own business and let others do their own thing.

And if you ARE going to be pointing them out for no reason, expect them to be unhappy about it. I swear...reading this says to me "I want to be a jerk ... but I really don't understand why people are getting so mad about it!"

This isn't the old days. Times change. It's rude to point at people who are hiding. So what if you are able to do it mechanically? It is RUDE.

If you want to keep doing it, fine. Go for it. Just quit whining about the fact that people get mad at you.

[This message has been edited by NoOneImportant (edited 08-21-2001).] reg

I think you as a player need to make a decision on whether you keep pointing out a person who's asked you not to. It may be IC for you to do it, but if it's going to detract from the other person's game why should you do it?

And I don't think that hiding after being pointed out is disruptive. That makes no sense at all, unless the person being pointed at was creating a lot of screen scroll trying to re-hide. reg

Currently, we are being overrun with immature little brats who want their way all the time. Pointing at them or any other interaction and they will go crying to staff and state harassment. Boo hoo.

Start weeding out the idiots and make the game a place where people don't have to worry about simple roleplay then maybe it will get better.

What the hey is check six? reg

GSAura<<

Darren/Dramada is a Flyboy. :> Check Six, means to basically always look behind you.
Six o'clock on your watch, a part of a good
situational awareness for anyone in a combat
situation. Be they a flyboy are a scout on
the ground.

As a side note, greetings Darren.

Jim/Celtar
reg

If someone continues to point me out after I asked them not to.. They are going to die. Or be reported for harassment. Most likely they won't die anymore.. Because GMs are in a freaky mood about all the CvC and PvP.

There is no in game reason to point people out all the time. In the real world if you see someone trying to hide.. in a corner or the shadows of a building it might mean they are up to no good, or they are waiting for the right time to ambush someone. In real life.. you wouldnt go near them. You walk by trying not to notice or youd turn around and walk the other way. So don't say its what you would do in real life. If you pointed at people like that.. or went up to them and asked why they were hiding. They'd prolly beat you to a pulp just like anyone in game would if you mess with them.
reg

Des reg

quote:

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Originally posted by AestheticDeath:
If someone continues to point me out after I asked them not to.. They are going to die. Or be reported for harassment.

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Reporting for harassment?

From an IC sense:
Give me a break. At least have the guts to handle it on your own. If you aren't able to handle it on your own - too bad.

From an OOC sense:
You hide in a public place - they will be able to take the defense that they were concerned you were going to steal from them.

The GMs interfere too much as is for in character issues.
Promoting this type of thinking as being "an appropriate reportable matter" is completely bogus in my eyes.
Down with Disneyfication!

[This message has been edited by Magister (edited 08-23-2001).] reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Magister:
Reporting for harassment?

From an IC sense:
Give me a break. At least have the guts to handle it on your own. If you aren't able to handle it on your own - too bad.

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I don't get this. Because mechanics don't allow someone to 'handle' it on their own the victim shouldn't be able to do anything about it? What should I do, gain more levels so I can get a bigger AS to kill the pointer?

quote:

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From an OOC sense:
You hide in a public place - they will be able to take the defense that they were concerned you were going to steal from them.

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Not all people who hide are pickpockets. In fact, it's often the opposite... Many thieves prefer staying in the open and talking to their targets. The ones being pointed out are usually not rogues or aren't sufficiently trained in hiding. The pointer may take that defense but it's hardly a reasonable one.
reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Taernath:
I don't get this. Because mechanics don't allow someone to 'handle' it on their own the victim shouldn't be able to do anything about it? What should I do, gain more levels so I can get a bigger AS to kill the pointer?

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All too often, report is a FIRST line of defense - not a last resort.

I am tired of people that go find the biggest/baddest person they can find, pick a fight with them by bouncing in and out of hiding - then pinching, etc. to annoy them - and then after they finally get a reaction from the person, they report that so-and-so is doing stuff to them by pointing them out, etc.

If you aren't able to handle the situation on your own - get over it, deal with it or go somewhere else where you can handle it on your own.

There are other options besides the "Kill them if you can" and "Report them if they are too old" philosophies.

Unfortunately, those are just the 2 most common (and unimaginative) choices. After all, this is a roleplaying game.

quote:

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Originally posted by Taernath:
Not all people who hide are pickpockets. In fact, it's often the opposite... Many thieves prefer staying in the open and talking to their targets. The ones being pointed out are usually not rogues or aren't sufficiently trained in hiding. The pointer may take that defense but it's hardly a reasonable one.

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Of course not all hiders are pick pockets. Several very successful pick pockets are clerics since they can uncurse/unpoison/undisease themselves from cursed gems/needles.

Its not a "right" to hide in a public place. And having any reasonable justification ranging from "I am concerned he's a pick pocket so I want to keep my eye on him" all the way to "I am roleplaying a jerk" and everything in between should be adequate reasons.

[This message has been edited by Magister (edited 08-23-2001).] reg

Another one... A guy comes in to talk to me, and I totally ignore him cause I dont know him and dont wanna speak to him. (No just because I dont know him, but because of the topic he brings up in a whisper.) I start interacting with other people so he knows I am not sleeping, and that I am ignoring him.. He keeps whispering to me. Finally I hide, and then he points me out.. whispering some more. I tell him NOT to point me out, that if he does it again I will kill him. Well within my abilities. And he knows it. Guess what, he points me out. I cast 706 at him instead of killing him. And say NEXT time he will die. And he would of. But 8 minutes later when the stun wore off he swears, says what the hell and leaves. FINALLY getting the point that I dont wanna talk to him. A lil later newly rolled guy comes in and starts pointing me out of hiding. Doing the same stuff the first guy was doing. Cept he isnt whispering the crap #1 was. Hes just pointing me out for the hell of it. I tell him not to.. I dont remember all the exact stuff we said back and forth but it lasted like 8 minutes with the guy being totally rude. And finally I ask what the hell he wants, and He responds "To make your life miserable." After all this time I still havent killed him.. it wouldnt have solved anything.. And I would have been banned the second I killed him. So this is where I report him for harassment. It WAS harassment. And there was nothing for me to do but to report it. The GM told me I did exactly the right thing in reporting though I should have done it sooner. And to report immediatly next time. Then follow with an assist.

I have had uncountable cases of idiots trying to mess with me. All because they dont like the fact that the character was bought. It is harassment, and if I tried to deal with it myself I would be banned. Only way to deal with it, and the right way to deal with it, is to report. I dont like the way I have to deal with it... Id much rather blow him up and drag him mid-way to Icemule where you cant fog. Id love to be able to handle my own problems without GM involvment.

But then you have the instances where the idiot harassing you is older and you cant do a thing. Thats usually the case. Thats where you either get in trouble for bringing in friends, or you report. What else can you do?

quote:

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Originally posted by Magister:
If you aren't able to handle the situation on your own - get over it, deal with it or go somewhere else where you can handle it on your own.

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That was a totally stupid thing to say. You shouldn't have to put up with someone elses crap just because their character is older than yours. Getting over it isnt an option.. cause they just find you and do it over and over. Other people see you are someone they can walk all over and get away with it. And there isnt a place where you can handle it on your own. Anywhere you go there will be characters older than you, that you won't be able to deal with. reg

And I am referencing handling things from an IC standpoint while remaining within policy.

I agree that the restraint that older persons have to use in dealing with younger folks is borderline ridiculous with the Disneyfication policies that are in effect.

Assuming your character does not have a history of numerous warnings, and the person you are dealing with is obviously not attempting to make any effort to roleplay the situation and is solely there to "make your life miserable" - I believe you should be able to use the "3 strikes and you're out" method safely without being overly worried that you'll get in trouble.

After the 3rd strike (and ample warning that you are going to react if they don't leave you alone), stun them, then tell them that if they leave you alone, they can become unstunned. Then, unstun them. They give you any garbage - stun'em ONE time, and leave them stunned and go about your business.

If after the stun wears off (or they bring in other accounts of theirs to unstun), and they continue to harass you, then reporting is really your only course of action left.

You might consider purchasing a glass amulet - it would make things a lot easier.

quote:

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Originally posted by AestheticDeath:
But then you have the instances where the idiot harassing you is older and you cant do a thing. Thats usually the case. Thats where you either get in trouble for bringing in friends, or you report. What else can you do?

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Depends on the situation. If its an IC issue - resolve it IC. If this means, you have to back down, leave the area and go somewhere else, so be it.

Report should be used for only OOC issues, or violations of policy.

quote:

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Originally posted by AestheticDeath:
You shouldn't have to put up with someone elses crap just because their character is older than yours.

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If its handled IC and it doesn't violate policy, yes - you absolutely should have to put up with it.

quote:

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Originally posted by AestheticDeath:
Getting over it isnt an option.. cause they just find you and do it over and over.

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If they are excessive in their behavior and not allowing an issue to end by continuing to hound you without allowing you to extricate yourself from the situation, then they violated policy.

quote:

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Originally posted by AestheticDeath:
Anywhere you go there will be characters older than you, that you won't be able to deal with.

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Not true. At your age, with the exception of the Rift, you should be among the older peer group for most areas.

But again, we are referencing 2 different matters entirely - OOC & violation of policy do get handled by report.

People that are IC as long as its advantageous for them, then go pick a fight with older persons, and then when they ultimately get what they wanted in the first place - and then report, are the persons that I have issue with.

[This message has been edited by Magister (edited 08-23-2001).] reg

First I wanted to clarify some issues and assumptions that were made following my original post and a tangent if it had anything to do with my gaming history. I don't state of when I started the game as some bragging point. I am merely providing a background for those who don't know me. I never assume any given respect for such. Matter of fact in the game it means nothing to me.

I do not have the single goal of wanting as the player to be a "jerk". I have played other characters in the past and have contrasted their interpretation and actions by great degrees over the years in this game and others. I simply want the freedom to pursue some roleplay that should be very viable within the parameters of the gemstone world and within policy.

Trust me this was not an easy task in the least. Got a send by GM Andraste saying you can't point out someone if they want to hide saying it was disruptive. Also she stated you just can't point out everyone if you can. Which was completely untrue. I don't go roaming areas to find folks to point out. In an area where I choose to rest my character I "might" point out someone I see hide around him. I emphasize might, depending on the mood I want to simulate or the character's actions.

I next emailed feedback and was told if someone hides after I point them out then I should report them for disrupting my roleplay environment. So to prevent the hide, point, hide cycle. Which I agree with.

Next encouter. I pointed out some wizard in Varanur once and said immediately following, that I wanted to keep an eye on you. Whispered my reasons for the roleplay and the person ignored it and then reported me.

After that character and some High Lord Sorceror casting stun (twice) at my character (third party policy infraction) and the wizard casting a firecloud at my character they talked out loud of the "gods are watching" "stop disrupting me" etc. At no time did they attempt to whisper to me their desire as the player. I followed what feedback stated and reported then assisted. Please remember I have a history of giveing giving people the courtesy of first whispering as the player why I do things when I see it is a problem, but it didn't help.

Talked to GM Krilcan. ::big sigh:: Very abrupt and hard to swallow GM there. Treated me very badly and constantly tried to make me admit I was harassing someone and went so far to say 98 percent of the player base views hiding as a way to do certain skills and they have a right to do so even if they don't have any skill. After a long discussion and offering all sorts of examples and logical reasons why it would be a valid reasonable act for someone to want to "watch" another character. And no I didn't say the only option... GM Krilcan threatened HMC and warnings even though I stated at least three times that I would follow whatever he decided is policy in this matter. After being berated and insulted at my "lack of understanding when the rest of the people seem to understand it" statements he said I was trying to be a rule lawyer and try to find loopholes. ::shake head::

So here we go. Got it down. Next day I test out the theory if it's fine to hide and state don't point and see what would happen.
My character hides in the park and lo and behold Drizzsdt points me out. I didn't plan on it but when I noticed it was him I knew he would be not accept the "leave me alone line" (and no it wasn't planned for him to do so) and would force his point of view. So as GM Krilcan suggested I whispered to the player of Drizzsdt that I simply wanted to rest without being bothered and wanted to hide. He ignored it and roleplayed it well enough to say he would point out anyone he saw hiding. (must of been that small 2 percent of folks out there that GM Krilcan eluded to eh?) Well I assist and the host was very nice and said Krash would soon see me about the assist.

Up we both go Drizzsdt and myself. Krash immediately lectured us without any real attempt at first to find out why or what was the core issue. We finally get to it after he rants a few times. Here's the kicker. Hold onto your seats. He states he would point out anyone he saw hide and says Drizzsdt you can point at anyone you see hide. He said once a person is pointed out of hiding the "jig is up" and if they hide again it would be "stupid". He stated it is NOT harassment to point out a hider. He said it would be if you made it a mission in life to follow the character around pointing them out wherever they went. Both of us (Drizzsdt and I) do not do that. He also stated if the character wanted to hide they should go to another area. Seemed pretty clear to me. He said Hiding was a skill. If you don't have much in the skill you shouldn't expect to hide very well.

I try to convey the message as best I can that the exact opposite was said the previous night by another GM and by Andrastein the past. Drizzsdt also states the same stating he spent two hours talking to a GM who thought the same way as Krilcan. After stating that I would just like some consistency by staff with no sarcasm and being polite as I can I get a nice warm fuzzy comment from Krash stating to me "you can leave the game and no one would care". He also states you are the only one that doesn't understand this. (hmm I thought I was 98 percent now after changing to GM Krilcan's method). Mind you this is after having what I thought were some pretty productive and polite exchanges in the past with Krash over the last year via emails.

I have always respected Krash because in the past he took the time to listen to your concerns and went that extra mile to research a problem. I was simply taken aback. I know people can have bad days, and he did say thanks for working this out between the both of us (Drizzsdt and I) and started to relax and said "hey can I get back to working on Ebon's Gate?"

So I will let the comment slide on me leaving the game and no one caring and the other hurtful comments. I have a pretty thick head and have been raised in the old style AF of yelling fighter pilots so it does take a lot to rile me up.

I was surprised by that reaction and confused. Perhaps he was expecting me to stick to my guns and state that player's have a right to hide. I didn't and I think it confused him. I immediately agreed with his assessment and both Drizzsdt's and myself were pleased that a SGM made a decision on the matter once again.(once again meaning around a year ago another SGM stated the exact same thing to me during an assist about the same exact matter. When stating this to GM Andraste she was quick to point out that SGM no longer worked here) We both stated that this needs to be communicated to the rest of the staff and perhaps posted on the BBS.

Well you made it this far in this long out post. I hope this can help the community of Gemstone and help others who would like to have some roleplay freedom.

Let's just hope that this doesn't change yet again by a change in staff. ::mutter::

Check Six, (Jim thanks for the explanation for the person who asked) Side note, clock positions during flying are 12 o'clock in front and six in back. Good "mutual support" is tactical and maximizes lookout and employment.

Darren H. who loves the merge.. reg

Unless of course stroking one letter on your numeric pad to the right side of your keyboard is extremely straining (might be)

reg

quote:

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Originally posted by JustLilOlMe:
Is this really a problem? How about you turn into mature girls and boys and just move to a different room?

Unless of course stroking one letter on your numeric pad to the right side of your keyboard is extremely straining (might be)

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Sad to say without addressing the tone, yes.

I would go as far to say the majority of the customer base does not take the time or the simple effort to differentiate fantasy/reality. Most (98 percent? joke..) take this game far too seriously and anything done in character is viewed as a insult to their own real self.

When people start to understand and intern that they are not their character maybe we will see some change. Better yet if staff started setting up a framework to stop enforcing that type of behavior in game then we could make even more progress.

The conflict of interest as I see it is the company that tries to maximize revenue comprimises game and roleplay integrity to do so many times. To appease the majority sometimes corrupts the integrity. And trust me I am not roleplay elitist by any stretch of the imagination.

Just my opinion of course. Same type post has been deleted by Simu board monitors in the past as 'disruptive' and not in their best interest.

And to address the last post, take a little time and really look at your surroundings in the game sometime and try to determine the amount of roleplay that isn't all "fluffy". Try to stage some "serious" roleplay that might deal with disagreements in character or something negative and you will be reported faster than you can say roleplay.

As the policy states this is a role-play game, but there is no requirement to role-play. At the same time Simutronics staff determines what is in the best interest of the "majority". My opinion is the majority find some roleplay that isn't of the "Hi mommy" "hi son" variety then it's not welcome.

Focus, intensity, and judgement,

Darren H.

reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Hiway:
Sad to say without addressing the tone, yes.

I would go as far to say the majority of the customer base does not take the time or the simple effort to differentiate fantasy/reality. Most (98 percent? joke..) take this game far too seriously and anything done in character is viewed as a insult to their own real self.

When people start to understand and intern that they are not their character maybe we will see some change. Better yet if staff started setting up a framework to stop enforcing that type of behavior in game then we could make even more progress.

The conflict of interest as I see it is the company that tries to maximize revenue comprimises game and roleplay integrity to do so many times. To appease the majority sometimes corrupts the integrity. And trust me I am not roleplay elitist by any stretch of the imagination.

Just my opinion of course. Same type post has been deleted by Simu board monitors in the past as 'disruptive' and not in their best interest.

And to address the last post, take a little time and really look at your surroundings in the game sometime and try to determine the amount of roleplay that isn't all "fluffy". Try to stage some "serious" roleplay that might deal with disagreements in character or something negative and you will be reported faster than you can say roleplay.

As the policy states this is a role-play game, but there is no requirement to role-play. At the same time Simutronics staff determines what is in the best interest of the "majority". My opinion is the majority find some roleplay that isn't of the "Hi mommy" "hi son" variety then it's not welcome.

Focus, intensity, and judgement,

Darren H.

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Point taken...I agree with you.

I'm going to change the scene a little bit and create a new topic that might be of interest in this situation.
reg

Anyways always pointing out hiders because you have trained your character towards that is a great idea. Why should you allow others to hide in rooms you are in because of them wanting to train in other categories. Of course it is a good offensive ability, but never really thought of it as a defensive ability. Yah know if you were the one whom got stunned by another character because he trains in spells because you use a skill that you have trained yourself in would be a very hyprocrital policy of gms and mechanics itself. You use your points to train in it, why not use it. People use spells all the time to protect yourself, why not point people out to protect yourself. There are other ways for people to protect themselves just as you are (ex. camoflage, invisibility)That really does sadden me that you would get punished for using your ability. Of course it also sadden me that thiefs get pulled into the consulation lounge. Just let the players handle it! Just keep it all in character!

Lord Deprav
You reach into Phenomenon's pocket and pull out 113 coins. reg

Some people will be more likely to try and find their killer and cut them down. But the mechanics don't have any way of getting the stolen item back. You could kill me deedless, and the constable can send me to jail for a real life month, but unless I GIVE you the item back, you ain't getting it back.

The staff would have to completely overhaul the system to make this idea work (other than the first issue of people having NO desire to get into PvP, even avoiding areas known for it just so it doesn't happen to them, it really isn't a bad idea). It wouldn't just be a simple change so the constable can arrest. Besides, if the offense happens outside town, there's no constable. And you'd have to change the attitude of EVERYONE who plays the game, and no matter how many people you see playing at any given moment, you can be assured that there are THOUSANDS of paying accounts.

You would have to enforce this idea, that it MUST be done in character, on every single person who gets involved in any PvP situation. That means more staff, more often. LOTS more staff, 24/7. Because as soon as someone thinks "hey I could just pretend I'm RPing and grab this item and give it to my other account to sell"...the entire system fails.

On a small scale, it would work, and would be a great addition to RP. On a scale like Gemstone, with the variety of people and attitudes playing, I just don't see how it can be implemented and work.

reg

Parser could be rest or sleep. The character would appear sleeping instead of the old rest macro that used act where you had to see the oddly timed message to know the person is not lucid to their environment.

Or a sleeproll/bag. Could climb into it and be unseen without having any ability to do any sort of signs/skills/ambush/talk/stealing etc.

For those of you wanting so badly to hide for ooc reasons this would be a good strike at skills balance and maintaining the roleplay atmosphere.

Just ideas off the top of my head. Stuck in a hotel room bored.

Darren H. -range is cold cleared RTB. reg

Regardless of the hiding and pointing mechanics, when it is clearly being done to harass someone or create a disruptive situation that results in SEVERAL reports, it has gone beyond simple roleplaying... that is, if coming into a room and pointing out people (or select people) as they hide, is how you define roleplaying. I'm not saying that this is always the case or situation, but especially when we see or hear that it has happened without any engagement of RPed conversation until AFTER the hider objected to being pointed AND they have requested not to be pointed out, you just have to wonder what the point is here... and how is the other person supposed to know you don't like hiders or pointers. Are they expected to be psychic (like people want GMs to be)?

Not everyone is a thief, not everyone hides because they are going to steal. Some members of a certain society need to hide or move off to perform certain... abilities. I guess what I'm saying is that there has to be consistency in the RP, to insure it appears as RP, and not just snerty behavior.

Whatever... the bottom line is that if you're going to RP a role that acts paranoid or in some way creates conflict, then you have to also be sharp enough to know when you have crossed a line with that person. The most astute person I can think of that knows this, and lives by it is Jim/Celtar.

And almost anyone else that plays a dark character that doesn't end up repeatedly reported -- they must be doing something right! People know it's RP with those folks. I believe the key here is communication.

It should be easily apparent to almost anyone with common sense when the other player you have engaged in this kind of RP does not consider it mutual, consented, pleasant, acceptable... and have the wisdom to either withdraw or check in with them to make sure they understand that this is RP and not personal. It's also a smart way to avoid GM [SEND]s, warnings, consultations, lockouts, etc.

While some people might like and enjoy conflict, you do have to remember that not everyone in the game does. Not everyone in the game is a superlative roleplayer either, and that often makes subtle aggression hard to pull off as non-PvP.

Some people don't know how to deal with conflict, here or in real life, and for some conflict makes them very uncomfortable. You have absolutely no idea what their home life is like. If this is a place where people come for "escape", then keep in mind that some people come to escape the conflict and stress in their real lives. And they don't wish to deal with it here. Above all, you have to know that you can't force your style, standards, or method of RP on other people. They either interact with you because they enjoy it, or they don't wish to interact with you because they aren't enjoying it. When hit with the latter, it's best to just cut off dealing with them than risk it becoming an issue that toggles from IC to OOC quickly.

This goes back, again, to making sure that you are consentually roleplaying out a situation with another player and they are amenable to it.

For all the whining that I've heard over some of the silliest situations all these years, it's amazing how few people truly exhibit common sense, or even common courtesy at the least, and do the small and simple task of just checking in with the other player to make sure they are okay when they appear disturbed.

And this is why a majority of reports happen -- because they just don't ask, they assume.

--A. reg

You know for all the crap you've been getting Andraste, this situation makes me laugh. I'm totally against any kiss-up's to GM's or anything. But if this is the kind of crap you all face everyday...I'm never putting up a GM application. There's no way that I would have the patience to put up with this.

IF YOU DON'T WANNA GET POINTED OUT, THEN MOVE.

IF THEY DON'T WANNA GET POINTED OUT, THEN YOU MOVE.

Is it really that hard? This is the most childish debate on the most childish subject I've ever heard of.

reg

If someone asks you to stop pointing them out, leave them alone (unless they are stealing from you, talking crap about you, etc). I really don't think someone just HIDING is a big deal. Unless they're doing something to you, LEAVE THEM ALONE. I really don't understand why that is so difficult.

NOI reg

quote:

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Originally posted by NoOneImportant:
My opinion...

If someone asks you to stop pointing them out, leave them alone (unless they are stealing from you, talking crap about you, etc). I really don't think someone just HIDING is a big deal. Unless they're doing something to you, LEAVE THEM ALONE. I really don't understand why that is so difficult.

NOI

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Thank God. You've come to your senses NOI

I agree totally.

Let's give up this debate. It's silly.
reg

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Lord Deprav
Who likes to smash hobbits reg

quote:

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Originally posted by GMAndraste:
Since my name was brought up and I'm being severely and inaccurately paraphrased here (however, I won't be able to clarify it due to my NDA), let me chime in with this little conveniently left out consideration:

Regardless of the hiding and pointing mechanics, when it is clearly being done to harass someone or create a disruptive situation that results in SEVERAL reports, it has gone beyond simple roleplaying... that is, if coming into a room and pointing out people (or select people) as they hide, is how you define roleplaying. I'm not saying that this is always the case or situation, but especially when we see or hear that it has happened without any engagement of RPed conversation until AFTER the hider objected to being pointed AND they have requested not to be pointed out, you just have to wonder what the point is here... and how is the other person supposed to know you don't like hiders or pointers. Are they expected to be psychic (like people want GMs to be)?

Not everyone is a thief, not everyone hides because they are going to steal. Some members of a certain society need to hide or move off to perform certain... abilities. I guess what I'm saying is that there has to be consistency in the RP, to insure it appears as RP, and not just snerty behavior.

Whatever... the bottom line is that if you're going to RP a role that acts paranoid or in some way creates conflict, then you have to also be sharp enough to know when you have crossed a line with that person. The most astute person I can think of that knows this, and lives by it is Jim/Celtar.

And almost anyone else that plays a dark character that doesn't end up repeatedly reported -- they must be doing something right! People know it's RP with those folks. I believe the key here is communication.

It should be easily apparent to almost anyone with common sense when the other player you have engaged in this kind of RP does not consider it mutual, consented, pleasant, acceptable... and have the wisdom to either withdraw or check in with them to make sure they understand that this is RP and not personal. It's also a smart way to avoid GM [SEND]s, warnings, consultations, lockouts, etc.

While some people might like and enjoy conflict, you do have to remember that not everyone in the game does. Not everyone in the game is a superlative roleplayer either, and that often makes subtle aggression hard to pull off as non-PvP.

Some people don't know how to deal with conflict, here or in real life, and for some conflict makes them very uncomfortable. You have absolutely no idea what their home life is like. If this is a place where people come for "escape", then keep in mind that some people come to escape the conflict and stress in their real lives. And they don't wish to deal with it here. Above all, you have to know that you can't force your style, standards, or method of RP on other people. They either interact with you because they enjoy it, or they don't wish to interact with you because they aren't enjoying it. When hit with the latter, it's best to just cut off dealing with them than risk it becoming an issue that toggles from IC to OOC quickly.

This goes back, again, to making sure that you are consentually roleplaying out a situation with another player and they are amenable to it.

For all the whining that I've heard over some of the silliest situations all these years, it's amazing how few people truly exhibit common sense, or even common courtesy at the least, and do the small and simple task of just checking in with the other player to make sure they are okay when they appear disturbed.

And this is why a majority of reports happen -- because they just don't ask, they assume.

--A.

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Hmm.

I missed a few points...sorry...I'm gunna post another reply Andraste.

So...if you're going to role-play an evil character...how would you go about doing it? 'Cause nowadays it just doesn't seem feasible to me.
reg

quote:

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Originally posted by JustLilOlMe:
<<For all the whining that I've heard over some of the silliest situations all these years, it's amazing how few people truly exhibit common sense, or even common courtesy at the least, and do the small and simple task of just checking in with the other player to make sure they are okay when they appear disturbed.>>

You know for all the crap you've been getting Andraste, this situation makes me laugh. I'm totally against any kiss-up's to GM's or anything. But if this is the kind of crap you all face everyday...I'm never putting up a GM application. There's no way that I would have the patience to put up with this.

IF YOU DON'T WANNA GET POINTED OUT, THEN MOVE.

IF THEY DON'T WANNA GET POINTED OUT, THEN YOU MOVE.

Is it really that hard? This is the most childish debate on the most childish subject I've ever heard of.

---

JLOM,

You have no idea the scope of the situations of this nature reported

As far as I am concerned, it's not easy to say one party is right and the other party is wrong, because they both could take steps to simply avoid it becoming such an issue.

But -someone- has to take the high road when it does happen, unless they really want it to become a reported issue.

It absolutely astounds me that there is either so much lack of consideration and courtesy for other players, who pay to play here just like everyone else does (well, save those trial accounts, but they can't get above a certain level anyways), or such a widespread lack of common sense demonstrated today.

Sometimes it feels like I'm the mom here, when I have to deal with reported situations that should have never escalated to that stage.

If I had a dollar for each time I've had to recommend or request that:

• someone move along and leave another person alone

• someone ignore another person attempting to annoy or harass them, disengaging from them and assisting (so it's doesn't appear to be a mutual situation)

• someone stop touching someone who has asked them to please stop (or insert any other verb for touch)

• someone they don't own the room they're in (or critters in the room) and share it with others or move along

...and so on...

I would probably have an upgraded computer system today, and I'm talking about a nice G4 with a dual processor!

I'm dumbfounded. Why can't people see that the simple solution is just to behave with respect towards each other, just as they would wish someone would treat them?

I can only hope that as we try to get across to people to use courtesy and common sense, and that includes people hearing this from other players on the subject as well, that the incidences creating these kinds of reports and situations die down.

I'm not going to make some lame assumption that it's kids doing this. I'm sure many of these people are so-called adults.

Anyways, for the time being, I remain hopeful that things will change and people will once again have the respect for each other they had when I first started playing this game.

--A. reg

quote:

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Originally posted by JustLilOlMe:

Hmm.

I missed a few points...sorry...I'm gunna post another reply Andraste.

So...if you're going to role-play an evil character...how would you go about doing it? 'Cause nowadays it just doesn't seem feasible to me.

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It's feasible, JLOM, it's just not easy for many people, and many folks don't have the awareness required to be able to gauge when their roleplaying crosses a line and is perceived as a personal attack.

People will always cite Bleeds and Thalior as examples of evil people. Well, Bleeds was an excellent roleplayer and seldom did anything physical against another player without roleplaying a bit first and making his intentions clear. And commonly, it was mostly snerts who disregarded his requests that wound up victims of his actions. What people forget though is his manner of speaking, his sheer presence, that created his dark persona.

I never have understood why people worshipped Thalior. He was a power-hunting snert when I knew him as a player. His killing sprees, suicide attempts and lockouts were gossip fodder for the lands long before I became staff. The only RP I ever saw was when he was with his little harem of women wearing his collars.

He was, however, generous to a fault with some friends, always there to help out in invasions or rescues, and spent time giving players advice on Sorcery -- so he did have his good moments, but they weren't when he was wrapped up being evil. ::grin::

There is no easy solution or advice on how to RP evil. I believe it takes time to learn to do well AND avoid all the pitfalls that you can encounter doing so. I'd talk to people who are seen as being successfully evil or dark and don't have a history of being spoken to by GMs. People who are spoken of in revered tones, instead of spoken about distainfully.

Ask them about the pitfalls and what they have learned playing dark/evil personas.

--A. reg

_____________
Regardless of the hiding and pointing mechanics, when it is clearly being done to harass someone or create a disruptive situation that results in SEVERAL reports, it has gone beyond simple roleplaying...
_____________

I disagree. If you want to hide well, train in hiding. If you can't hide well enough to avoid prying eyes, move to another room if you are unwilling or unable to defend yourself. A Level 3 sorceror is most likely not going to be able to hide in the park, yet some think that it is a right, and this thinking is only fostered by a GM holding their hand and chastising the pointer.

_______________
Not everyone is a thief, not everyone hides because they are going to steal. Some members of a certain society need to hide or move off to perform certain... abilities.
_______________

If you want to do a 'secret' society ability, it is probably not a good idea to try to hide in the park with little or NO hiding skill. You are inviting everyone to point at you. I don't see how it is good roleplaying to let everyone see you hide so that you can use sign of wracking. If you are an awful hider, go to a table already.

________________
It should be easily apparent to almost anyone with common sense when the other player you have engaged in this kind of RP does not consider it mutual, consented, pleasant, acceptable... and have the wisdom to either withdraw or check in with them to make sure they understand that this is RP and not personal. It's also a smart way to avoid GM [SEND]s, warnings, consultations, lockouts, etc.
___________________

I was in the park a few nights ago, and a rogue walked in that always thieves from me if I have coins. When he entered the park, he immediately hid (I looked at him once and saw him with empty hands, and then he hid). After 2 or 3 minutes, I noticed him slip out of hiding, and he stashed two gems into his satchel. I then slipped out of hiding myself, and pointed him out of hiding. This is what followed....

You search around a few times.

You point rogue out of hiding.

Rogue says to you, "Do you have a problem?"

You say, "No"

Rogue hides again, I point again.

Rogue says, "point me out again, and I'm REPORTing you"

You say, "I tend to point out folks that are openly thieving. Perhaps you should learn how to hide better."

Rogue hides.

Rogue2 beats me to the punch and points him out.

Rogue attempts to steal from Rogue2, and is caught.

Rogue hides again.

I point him out.

Rogue says 'Okay, report is in, please continue to act like a fool.'

Rogue hides.

I point him out.

Now if you are suggesting that this is reportable, I'm flabbergasted. I'm not going to let someone blatantly steal if I can do anything to make the attempt harder. Hiding is not a right, it is a skill!

And for goodness sakes, if you are a sorceror (even if you have 10,000 trains) do not expect to be able to hide in public UNLESS you have trained in it. There are no free skills. You shouldn't punish the pointer with a mind jolt just because you are a horrible hider. It is not his/her fault that you haven't trained in the skills that you would like to use. reg

<whistles tunelessly>

By the way, personally, I don't point someone out unless I have a reason. But I think it's foolish to expect to be able to hide when you don't train in the skill. I don't care if you want to go AFK. The park, town central, the statue, the dais...are not the places to go. reg

reg

quote:

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Originally posted by DarkRanger:
Oh, and if anyone knows how to delete that duplicate message....

<whistles tunelessly>

By the way, personally, I don't point someone out unless I have a reason. But I think it's foolish to expect to be able to hide when you don't train in the skill. I don't care if you want to go AFK. The park, town central, the statue, the dais...are not the places to go.

---

The key point most everyone seems to be missing or glossing over, which is the key point I keep stressing, is this:

• When done just to annoy or without ANY RPing, it can be reportable as either disruptive or harassing, plainly because it doesn't come across as roleplaying.

• Both the pointer and the hider should TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for their actions, and behave like mature adults, instead of kids in a sandbox.

• What the heck has happened to common courtesy and respect for other players here?

For crying out loud, hiding doesn't always mean theft, and it seldom hurts anyone, especially if you take the precautions to prevent being a victim for thiefs. I seldom get stolen from because I know how to NOT BE A VICTIM. And those poison needles are pretty neat, too. ::smirks:: I've caught two highly-skilled thiefs with mine.

You would think that for all the hue and cry about people visibly resting AFK in public areas, people would PREFER that players them hiding, so as not to be eyesores!

I just don't get it, and I'm not buying the line about the mechanics of hiding and pointing were designed for this kind of behavior.

--A. reg

quote:

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Originally posted by GS3Aura:
I don't see where the debate is. Sounds like a SGM (Krash) made a ruling now Andraste is making excuses. Also looks like she is insulting hiway. Great job! Ignore the facts and everything is ok.

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Rulings are case by case, not blanket Blanket rulings are Policy.

Making excuses -- hardly. Stating general facts regarding recent behaviors by more than one person, yes -- and mind you, these are people who I know have been around a long time and they know the difference between roleplaying and snert-like behavior.

Insulting people directly -- not at all, however if someone identifies with the remarks I made, maybe they should look at that. Generically pointing out the lack of courtesy and common sense a portion of the population displays today, a change from the "glory days" of the past everyone is so fond of recalling and wishing would return -- exactly.

--A. reg

quote:

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Originally posted by GMAndraste:
Rulings are case by case, not blanket Blanket rulings are Policy.

Making excuses -- hardly. Stating general facts regarding recent behaviors by more than one person, yes -- and mind you, these are people who I know have been around a long time and they know the difference between roleplaying and snert-like behavior.

Insulting people directly -- not at all, however if someone identifies with the remarks I made, maybe they should look at that. Generically pointing out the lack of courtesy and common sense a portion of the population displays today, a change from the "glory days" of the past everyone is so fond of recalling and wishing would return -- exactly.

--A.

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reg

In the situation I cited, it has nothing to do with the players. It is about the characters. If I see someone blatantly stealing (which I did), then I'm not going to ignore it. Should I do this...

whisper thief Hey, I'm roleplaying here...if you'd prefer to steal and not have me bother you, just let me know.

I don't think so. I hardly ever whisper to a stranger, because it's not good roleplay.

>For crying out loud, hiding doesn't always mean theft, and it seldom hurts anyone, especially if you take the precautions to prevent being a victim for thiefs.

In this case, it did mean theft. Is it still reportable? Obviously this fellow did not enjoy being pointed out, but it was not because it was PvP, it was because I was hindering his theft attempts. He would rather steal unhindered, so he REPORTs. I think you are only encouraging this type of nonsense by putting the responsibility on the pointer.

>I seldom get stolen from because I know how to NOT BE A VICTIM. And those poison needles are pretty neat, too. ::smirks:: I've caught two highly-skilled thiefs with mine.

I know how not to get pointed out of hiding. Don't hide. I didn't chase the theif from room to room pointing him out. He did REPORT, and obviously the GM who peeked in saw that it was ridiculous. reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Andraste:
>If I had a dollar for each time I've had to recommend or request that:

• someone move along and leave another person alone

• someone ignore another person attempting to annoy or harass them, disengaging
from them and assisting (so it's doesn't appear to be a mutual situation)

• someone stop touching someone who has asked them to please stop (or insert any
other verb for touch)

• someone they don't own the room they're in (or critters in the room) and share it
with others or move along

...and so on...

---

Personally, I'd love to have a dollar for each of the people Simu lets stay in the game after they continually demonstrate they have no desire to roleplay.

And speaking of annoyances...GM NDA requirements are necessary. They are also quite convenient for "not being able to discuss something".

Pockets reg

You are one of the main reasons the game is like it is today. Andraste, YOU cater to the whiners and the snerts. YOU allow them to win and make so other people just like them overun gemstone.

YOU assume people do take the time to tell others when something bothers them. Until I see someway for us to really determine someone isn't lieing or trying to get their way I won't believe a single word you say.

YOU have made a game where any sort of person who wants to report someone is disturbing them the other person has to go away. People are doing this on purpose to show some sort of idiotic control scheme. You reward this by telling them to avoid each other.

For once make a decision or at least follow the decision of a SGM who stated from what I read if it's true that even he would point out a hiding person and would expect them to move on. So you would call a SGM wrong? What if that person doesn't want to move on? Should the SGM report and waste your time or should you tell snerty idiot who ignores his characters limitations to do the common sensical thing?

I could care less if someone wants to hide or not. What is important to me is their snerty requests on other issues. Instead of solving the problem you step in and just tell people to move on when there should be some sort of judgement call.

You preach and preach about this common sense people should have yet you do absolutely nothing to help anyone. Ignoring the problem does not solve the problem.

According to your preached method of roleplay everyone should go around whispering ooc Hey there buddy old pal hey can I roleplay with you? Would it be ok for me to be a character that doesn't like you? Would it be ok for me to point you out of hiding? That is simply ridiculous and hilarious.

Either you are so naive or out of touch with what is going on in the game or you are just being conflictive to cause even more problems. Is it really that hard to make a decision on a pretty simple issue?

Lack of common sense. I still can't stop laughing. Maybe you should focus on educating yourself on what this really means. Lack of common courtesy. LOL! You already win the award in that area. You really expect people to treat others with courtesy when you are reknown for treating not only people, but customers like you do?

From what I have read people have had the common courtesy in explaining to others why they are doing something and they ignored it. Whose fault is that? Should we as players automatically know when the roleplayer is talking or the character? We can't if they never tell you.

Andraste face the music. You got called out on something and now you are trying to make it appear, unprofessionaly I might add, to paint a picture that all these other people are at fault. I am not buying that.

Some of us read behind the maybe's and the statements of NDA BS. NDA's generally aren't restricting in this area. Poor customer service is poor CS in any business.

Crappy policy backed by a ragtag bunch of haphazard GM's who can't even agree on a simple matter is even more hilarious.
reg

R
reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Ellarze:
I see no problem with having a differing opinion, but everyone needs to learn to express these opinions without stooping to crass personal insults. Otherwise, I see those who are constantly attacked, deciding reading the posts here are not worth the time or effort. Then, what was once a golden opportunity to be heard, would be lost.

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If I somehow insulted Andraste (a fake persona) then please show me where. I am being critical of her behavior and she is just one of other GM's who do the same. The critique is on the status of the roleplay, the policy, and the lack of consistent interpretation.

Just as she isn't buying other people's reasons doesn't mean I have to buy into her's either.

Maybe if she stopped being a Mom and started concentrating on being a professional who represents a company then maybe I would see less to criticize.

reg

Additionally, it's realistic to expect that GMs have a differing view about the situations than most players, because players don't have to tools to see what GMs do, nor do they know the history of the conflict or the players involved, and they generally aren't the ones who have to deal with the players in question.

Again, the point being missed here, at least by some, is the fact that the REPORTED situations were not being roleplayed out, at least for one party, which means a GM has to make a decision.

I'm not the only GM who dealt with all of them, I'm not the only GM who watched all of them, and I didn't make the decision alone to step in and handle the report -- matter of fact, on two occassions, I was told to go ahead and resolve it by GMs senior to me who clearly felt the situation was disruptive, given the basic guidelines of policy -- guidelines being the key word.

What I also find ironic is that players can come here and take all the shots they want, flame people (which sometimes gets removed), insult reader intelligence... let's see, didn't someone recently accuse some people of have the IQ of a 3-year-old?

And yet, when I share my comparison of -some- players here who act like kids in a sandbox whose reports sound much like "Mom! He's touching me!", then I get told I'm being unprofessional? ::chuckle:: Nice double standard.

Yes I have a reputation for being a strict imposer of Policy. And while in the past I might have jumped in on a situation a bit too quickly, I have learned to bide my time, log details, springboard off the opinions of others, and then, based on the consensus, I act. This is why less than 1% of my lockouts and warnings have been overturned -- because I back up my notations with solid facts.

I've also got a reputation for being fair, honest, and direct -- comments to that effect have been posted here. Some of my detractors admit as much.

I'm also one of very few GMs who is actually willing to take the time to sit down with players that have a conflict with me, to resolve it. Ask Buckwheet, ask Edge.

So GS3Aura, I'll extend the same offer to you. Don't take it to email, as Deshari suggested, because if it's like the posts on these boards, it'll just be deleted or sent to Feedback as harassment. If you want to iron things out, feel free to ASSIST any Wednesday or Sunday night, between 11:30 PM and 1:30 AM, when I am onduty. If those times aren't convenient for you, feel free to suggest another.

--A. reg

Mano reg

quote:

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Originally posted by GMAndraste:
Comments made by those upon hearing one side of the situation, when all the "victims" who reported the disruptive/harassing behavior haven't come forward to post aren't insults. They're just assumptions or snap judgements, which is readily apparent.

Additionally, it's realistic to expect that GMs have a differing view about the situations than most players, because players don't have to tools to see what GMs do, nor do they know the history of the conflict or the players involved, and they generally aren't the ones who have to deal with the players in question..

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What tools? You mean the mind reading tool that GM's possess? Are you there 24/7 to monitor this history? Or maybe do you make snap judgements based on a small piece of the pie? What do you mean by dealing with the player's in question? Is that something that blocks the ability to make fair judgements? Do you even try to attempt to ask people why they are doing something first before snapping to these same said judgements? I doubt it. I see assumptions of a GM that the player is doing an activity to harass when sometimes I see characters being consistent and not backing down to snerts. It is not the player's constant responsibility to report everytime someone in character doesn't like what they did in response, just "in case" that they took it personally. For crying out loud! But in your hypocritical world it is. Have to report so you can watch what might happen so the person later doesn't look like they are making up some story.

quote:

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Originally posted by GMAndraste:

Again, the point being missed here, at least by some, is the fact that the REPORTED situations were not being roleplayed out, at least for one party, which means a GM has to make a decision.

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I have read in policy it is not a requirement to roleplay. Defending against a pickpocket by pointing out a possible thief does not require roleplay. Just as a thief is not required to roleplay picking your pocket. You stated earlier that not everyone who hides is a thief. REALLY? WOW! Ok what people who are hiding are thieves? Numerous GM's have stated countless times that pickpocketing is extremely hard to see. Pickpocketing does receive a bonus for a hiding thief. You have an opinion. You are stating that the only acceptable way to guard against pickpockets is to deposit silvers and close containers. That sounds like dictated roleplay and not policy. Sometimes it is inconvenient to do so as the player when your character is at a far off location etc. Hey this sounds familiar huh?

Some players want to hide because it is convenenient to do so for afk or signs draining spirit. Gosh darn! Is this a roleplay game you are advertising or not? I can just see it now. Hey um thieves here that I can't see hiding... (clears throat) hey could you not pickpocket my character because it is too inconvenient for me to go to the bank? This sinking in yet? Hey um people here where you are sitting and chatting can you ignore my really crappy hiding so that I don't have to realize my character's limitations and take two seconds to wrack somewhere else and not point at my character?

Is it really that hard for you to see these examples? Wow. Gosh common courtesy and gosh darn common sense. I mean like those silly kids in their sandbox should know better darn it.... (mutter)

quote:

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Originally posted by GMAndraste:

What I also find ironic is that players can come here and take all the shots they want, flame people (which sometimes gets removed), insult reader intelligence... let's see, didn't someone recently accuse some people of have the IQ of a 3-year-old?

And yet, when I share my comparison of -some- players here who act like kids in a sandbox whose reports sound much like "Mom! He's touching me!", then I get told I'm being unprofessional? ::chuckle:: Nice double standard.

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What is confusing about this? Who is Andraste? No one to me at least. It is some faceless anonymous GM to me. It is nothing. You have no risk or capability to be personally responsible to your customers. You really think it is appropriate for a Customer service person to use the same avenues and ways a person complains? Better go back to that neato customer service seminar!

quote:

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Originally posted by GMAndraste:

Yes I have a reputation for being a strict imposer of Policy. And while in the past I might have jumped in on a situation a bit too quickly, I have learned to bide my time, log details, springboard off the opinions of others, and then, based on the consensus, I act. This is why less than 1% of my lockouts and warnings have been overturned -- because I back up my notations with solid facts...

---

From what I have seen personally and heard from others you are strict in enforcing your opinion of policy and jump to conclusions before you know any facts.

What are you a crime detective on scene covering some major drug deal? Or are you a customer service rep who has to balance the retention of customers (as in educate) and enforcing a policy? So you are bragging about how you spy on people and could stop something before it becomes disruptive but let it impact even more customers. Wow! Great going there! How about use your "tools" and communicate to the people who you suspect could be heading down the wrong side of policy instead of pouncing on them. You lose a customer and you spread a bad reputation.

Lastly, Nope. I am not going to be some target of your tiger in the bushes ambush. If you can't read my anonymous comments just as I read your anonymous comments then that's all you get. I have heard and read enough about your "ways and means" by people I know and trust. I have avoided you for over 6 months and plan on doing that for the most likely short duration of my play in the game.

reg

Hiding does not add to the ability to steal.

I can steal just as good from the open as I do in hiding.

All hiding does is after they steal then can then sneak away into another room to pocket the gem, and if someone did see them hiding again means you can't get attacked untill pointed out.

Buckwheet reg

No room for further discussion.

I would like to kindly ask you to refrain from taking a vendetta against someone and blast them out of the water as you did.

From my point of view, you are right will always be right, nothing will change that, not even Andraste being open minded enough to fix this problem between you and her.

I have heard enough. Close minded people are always right I guess, it just is too bad that open minded people have to suffer.

Buckwheet reg