The Players Corner Archive

[This message has been edited by Zanagodly (edited 09-03-2001).] reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Zanagodly:
I heard information leading me to believe that along with many very valuable items, certain influential GMs possibly could be offering full reallocation for those super old members of gemstone (level 200+) in order for them to drop down to level 160. Now, I don't so much oppose that, but I don't believe a certain tiny portion of the population should be able to totally adapt to ALL the game changes that occured throughout the lifetime of that character.My character being level 138, and planning on a life of picking to gain high levels is very strongly affected by this. Certain select few people who will be only 22 levels older than myself with perfect training, while I sit there with 40 some odd disarm/pick ranks, and heavily overtrained in a secondary spell circle. I'd assume that very few will train in picking when these super old folks retrain etc etc, even though that alone is what got most of them 100+ levels over the oldest age to learn hunting. Suddenly somone who once picked yours and others boxes 10 hours a day suddenly can't even pick the smallest of boxes.
Curious on the view of some others regarding this issue alone.

[This message has been edited by Zanagodly (edited 09-03-2001).]

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While it's supposedly balancing the game...it's completely rediculous in my opinion. I think that the age cap could be the dumbest thing that the GM's have ever put into place.

It's just ruining the RP'ing aspect as you've pointed out. Now someone who you looked at that was in their 230's all of a sudden drinks from the fountain of youth and is in their 170's? Suddenly someone who had a 1000 plus CS is moved down to the 800's? It's just not kosher.

As I've stated on the official boards, I think that the age cap is just stupid. My main argument there was that I've felt all along that the (I hate longevity of course) newer players are the one's that are making suggestions such as age caps. I heard the absolute dumbest suggestion on the official boards by a younger character that an RT be institude for dragging? I read it and I was like, "Are you out of your friggin' mind?" Dragging with an RT through plane 4 or 5...I'd like to see you do that.

Just my opinion. (I hate that I always have to make this statement now at the end of my posts here) reg

Level cap or no level cap - they really should do something about the aging issue. It's just silly.
reg

I saw it as yet another one of Melissa's really bad leadership choices. She really doesn't appear to "understand" the concept
how things can be percieved by others.

Of course that's not just her error, many in staff I truely believe do not understand
"Cause and effect".

I was posting about this and other concerns when I managed to get enough warnings to make any person happy who collects bb warnings.::stares off:: Since I wouldn't back off of my concern and kept posting my
queries, queries that SIMU staff didn't wish
to speak about.

Jim/Celtar reg

I know it will never happen, but personally I think it should be a requirement that everyone re-allocates underneath the new "set roll" setting.

I think it would diversify the characters and allow people who are older that were shafted by changes to sorcery or changes to armor problems readjust, and at the same time it might allow them instead of being the fully trippled character they once wanted to be, to be more of a well rounded better role-played character.

I wouldn't mind doing it, but I know several people who would disagree saying that it would create a huge set of "uber" characters. I think that this is true as well, but if the GM's think long term here, many of these "uber" characters might breeze through levels, however if the age cap stays in place where do these "uber" characters have to go, but flying straight into the cap?

If people know there is a cap, or the "end" I don't think they will try to reach that as fast as possible. I could be wrong though.

If people see this handed out across the board they will still scream unfair and say they are leaving, but I think in overall terms of the game it would be a decent thing.

Making these "super 9" characters isn't going to change the problem. The problem will still come up when you now have 100 people sitting at the 160 cap and nothing to hunt, or the 200 cap. As long as Simu says " We have the possiblity of making the creatures older." People will continue to demand older areas. But if Simu just says Nothing over 160 will be coming out in the next 10 years, stop asking, people could handle that better I think.

I know its hard to look at it like that, because you feel you had something taken from you. But you only will have something "taken" from you if you are currently over the 160 cap.

But that is what I would like to see done.

New players in a couple months or even new characters for the older characters will still fall under the set roll policy so in time things would work themselves out.

Buckwheet reg

I think the purpose of it was more so that Melissa (and staff) could get an idea of what they wanted and what it would take to get them to drop down to the cap. Something to negotiate with.

So let's just wait and see what actually happens before we all start bitching and whining again, ok? reg

Offering reallocation after the deICEing
was a "must" due to the very large change to
skills and where they sat in relation to the
Character manager.

Actually their was one other option, and I tend to think that they should have done this option at the time. And that was "start
over". Sorry folks our contract with ICE is not renewed.

Were taking the game down for the next couple weeks and will be deICEing the system, and incorperating a system that is ours. Plus removing all references to ICE's
Shadow World.

Of course that "might" have cost them customers, but I tend to doubt it. When they
shut down GSII at various times, folks had to restart from scratch. The same thing was standard for us during the GEnie side of beta testing DR.

There should be nothing asked or offered for those who exceed the games parimeters. A soft cap should have been implaced after the deICEing when it was mentioned back then. And if not then, three years later when the game went flat charge for usage. I've always said someone really dropped the ball on this.

And its not like it wasn't mentioned by many veteran players and even some staff. We had Strom and Ladydawn among others to show us how fast someone could train who didn't have the limit of a credit card placed upon them. Free Flag accounts on GEnie and the later Overhead accounts on AOL really showed how folks could train. Simu ignored this which I thought was sad.

A fair playing field is just that, SIMU can not "offer" gifts of items, silver, reallocation etc for those who trained to post 160. They'll just have to wait till the game grows to a point where they can advance again, if that happens of course.

My opinion is to try another character, do something different, I am sure most of them missed alot of what the lands has to offer by powering their way up like they did.

For all the anti-Ice ager comments that folks tend to make, you'll note that the nine are not Ice agers. Nor were most who
got to the Rift. The biggest two power hunters in the ice age were probably Oghier and Strom and even they are far outclassed now by those who came after. Stop and smell the roses comes to mind.

Celtar
reg

There are only 5 ICE'rs that I've seen in the rift. (5 might not be the right number)

And the eldest was the original vulture raiser...and he can't hunt anymore.

There's only 2 people that have finished the rift that were ICE'rs. (Although I could be wrong)

reg

I was just curious on how people felt about it concerning their own characters. I don't ever think a tiny tiny section of the Elanthian Population should be allowed to reallocate and train to become the best character for that class based on current changes. This leaves the rest of us out in the cold. Even considering the large sacrifice of dropping down 80-100 levels, these people shouldn't receive something like reallocation without the rest of us getting it as well.

Mike

Zanagan reg

quote:

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They, (They being SIMU) should not even offer such a thing. The game has always
been a play as is and can and will change. A part of SIMU policy "always" has been
that.

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AS IS..CAN AND WILL CHANGE..

That cannot be stated enough. Players know the critter level caps. Players trained purposely to beat this critter level cap to gain experience in excess of those caps. Their choice, their doing.

As far as those professions that don't have to hunt and/or pick to gain exp in excess of the natural critter level, I agree with Jim - Simu saw that coming.

It will be interesting to see the final outcome of all this. reg

Regarding #1, Uber characters can be created anyway with that older character baby-sitting the totally optimized newb providing unlimited mana, equipment, webbing/stunning of critters, guaranteed rescues no matter where they died in the game, etc.

#2 is far more of an issue. Its impossible to balance anything when you got characters that are TWICE as old as the oldest creature in the entire game.

How much is it worth to drop 5 million experience / 100 levels? I'd say its worth a lot. The position of "well they deserve to get screwed because they are above 160 and Simu has the right to do it" is bogus in my opinion.

Dedicating all of their time into 1 game and 1 character (in most cases) instead of rolling up massive amounts of other characters through the years to try out other professions/combinations, and not playing other games (like Dragonrealms, Everquest, etc.) by spending all of their effort on Gemstone is not something they should be penalized for.

Regardless, its a non-issue at this point - its my understanding that Simu hasn't had any communication with the 9 since Simucon. reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Alfador:
How about this. If you are a evel 200+ empath/warrior/sorcerer/wizard you should refuse to reallocate. Simply make a new character in the meantime. If it takes you like 3 or 4 years to get them to the cap, I'm sure that is less time than it'll take for hunting grounds to be available to your old character. At this point you'll have you optimized cap character + your 200 level one.

Sonic

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Exactly my point in my previous post. If I were them, I'd be jacking a young totally optimized newb through the levels as quickly as possible as a hedge against getting screwed over. reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Magister:
Exactly my point in my previous post. If I were them, I'd be jacking a young totally optimized newb through the levels as quickly as possible as a hedge against getting screwed over.

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Isn't that what some of them are doing already?

As far as the cap and "compensation" for those who are over it, everyone has their own opinions on it. I'm just saying to wait and see what happens before bitching (heh,as if) about what the "nine" are getting. Even THEY don't know yet. reg

Getting them to do anything is a relatively drawn out process, getting them to change what they just did is 100 times as long.

'lood reg

I make the pretty safe assumption that the 3 that put in the most painful leveling were Drizz, Malok, and the recently sold Suvar. I'd hate to see their patience of putting up with 100 levels of picking ultimately be in vain. Whether anyone likes it or not, it's characters like this that get the unbalancing things in the land fixed, not the RPers or the calculators.

Sonic reg

When I see statements made like "I heard information leading me to believe that along with many very valuable items, certain influential GMs possibly could be offering reallocation for these super old members of gemstone (level 200+) in order for them to drop down to the level cap.", or "Just because they were asked for their 'wish list' doesn't automatically guarantee that every single thing they ask for will be granted."or " ::chuckle:: It's not a rumor, it was discussed." ... I have to wonder what some people use for brains. "Certain" GMs are in a position to make decisions like that? Simu asked us for a "wish list"? Neither are true.

I'm not here to debate what types of compensation there might be, if we agreed to drop to the level cap. Unless you were at the meeting, anything you've heard, no matter where you heard it from, you don't really know what was said. Those who were there, who really shouldn't have been there, don't know everything that was discussed. They weren't even there for the whole meeting. And those of us that were there for all of it have not discussed every detail that was talked about. We didn't even finish our meeting. So basing your judgements on what you've been hearing is simply nothing more than assumptions of something that you really don't know about, because if you weren't there, then you have no actual facts to base your assumptions on.

I will not debate age cap compensation here. And any compensations, proposals, agreements, etc., that may or may not take place are between Simutronics and those individuals involved.

It might behoove many to keep snide remarks, inuendos, and assumptions to themselves, seeing how you weren't there, and don't have factual information, unless you were.

Angellisa reg

Lord Deprav
"Calmer than you are."~Walter~ reg

quote:

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It might behoove many to keep snide remarks, inuendos, and assumptions to themselves

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whats the fun in that?

I think it would behoove a few to realize that just because the mass majority of players didnt spend money and fly out to st. louis just to attend a meeting directed towards a finite percentage of the players, doesn't mean that their opinion on things that effect past and future gamewide decisions are useless.

'lood
"Your acting very un-dude"

[This message has been edited by kelood (edited 09-07-2001).] reg

quote:

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Originally posted by kelood:
whats the fun in that?

I think it would behoove a few to realize that just because the mass majority of players didnt spend money and fly out to st. louis just to attend a meeting directed towards a finite percentage of the players, doesn't mean that their opinion on things that effect past and future gamewide decisions are useless.

'lood
"Your acting very un-dude"

[This message has been edited by kelood (edited 09-07-2001).]

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Nobody spent money to fly to St. Louis to attend this meeting. This meeting wasn't even planned. It just HAPPENED.

....and, I'm not saying people don't have a right to post an opinion about something. What I said was "So basing your judgements on what you've been hearing is simply nothing more than assumptions of something that you really don't know about, because if you weren't there, then you have no actual facts to base your assumptions on." Rumors and speculations based on hearsay do nothing more than "stir the pot", and are quite non-productive.

"Maybe if you did share some of the information...we all wouldn't be left in the dark."

Read my post again. I will not debate age cap compensation here. And any compensations, proposals, agreements, etc., that may or may not take place are between Simutronics and those individuals involved.
I, for one, won't be sharing any information that is discussed between me and Simutronics, when the time comes, and I doubt you'll find any of us who will.

Angellisa

reg

quote:

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Nobody spent money to fly to St. Louis to attend this meeting. This meeting wasn't even planned. It just HAPPENED.

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even more to my point.

reg

Mike reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Angel:
Nobody spent money to fly to St. Louis to attend this meeting. This meeting wasn't even planned. It just HAPPENED.

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It happened where people spent money to get there. So those of us who couldn't/wouldn't pay more money to Simu to get basic information now feel shunned for not blowing hundreds of dollars to get information we should ALL have.

I see no reason why all meetings and conferences weren't summarized, or even recorded, and put on the website for everyone else to have access to. Why the people with money should have control over information all players should have is the stupidest thing this company does. Jeez, every (decent) company that conducts meetings and conferences post minutes for those who couldn't attend so that the other employees are still in the know. But that's right.. Simu is all about money and wanting to keep just those who want to shell out more money to them and not care about integrity to the game (ergo, the introduction of Platinum and Simucon).

And I think it's rather selfish that these people who were in this meeting won't share possible knowledge with the rest of us who play as well, leaving us with assumptions and guesses and feeling (again) left out in the cold. They want to feel special and in an elite group of people that excelled to a great height of leveling.. fine. Just don't be upset when we try to piece ideas and suggestions together from conversations here and there because we're tired of not knowing anything about the game we chose to play and enjoy.

I'm still ticked they even PUT a cap. If they let characters get that old, let them lie in their own bed. They should have put the age cap on the oldest CHARACTER in the game and adjust the critters level to that. Yeah but that would mean more work for the staff. Oh well! Should have thought of that when the web opened allowing people to play 24/7 with no repercussions of any kind.

It's a shame that a game I used to adore and cherish has crumbled in my mind and heart in order to cater to the snerts and the rich. Yes rich because I REFUSE to pay hundreds of dollars for a GAME I should have information for at my beck and call. I shouldn't feel that it's all secret and get a reply of "Oh well! You should have gone to Simu! Don't you feel stupid." Nope, you're the stupid ones because you're losing valuable players over stupidity.

Ah! I feel so much better venting all of that. I haven't played for a good amount of time in almost a month, and with the way things are going in the game, with age caps, GM babysitters and the constant whining and complaining, it's a wonder I'm still here at all. Call me stubborn for not wanting to just completely abandon a hobby I spent over 5 years investing in.

------------------
~Jeanine

If you can't say something nice about someone, come sit by me! reg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:

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Originally posted by CrystalTears:
It happened where people spent money to get there. So those of us who couldn't/wouldn't pay more money to Simu to get basic information now feel shunned for not blowing hundreds of dollars to get information we should ALL have.

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I think her point is that a special trip wasn't made to St. Louis to discuss the age cap, the discussion just took place because there happened to be several of the individuals affected in attendance.

I myself spent at the most $20 to go to Simucon, and really didn't learn a whole lot more than I knew before I went. I was in attendance at THE MEETING, and talked with those involved at length BEFORE and AFTER the meeting. Let me say this much: IF anything was decided upon at this discussion, given Simutronics' policy of dragging their feet, does anyone actually believe there would be a resolution anytime, oh, say this decade?

Anyhow, my opinion on the situation is that it's between Simu and those affected.

A lost ranger. reg

quote:

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Originally posted by RIFT-N-RANGER:
I myself spent at the most $20 to go to Simucon, and really didn't learn a whole lot more than I knew before I went.

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Oh man, you didn't spend anything to attend the conference and stayed for free?! I need to meet your friends!

One of my points in my long rant was that someone didn't like that people were talking out of generalizations and heresay from what they heard on the streets. Well guess what.. it happens all the time. People want to know what's going on, and when they're kept out of the loop, they make their own assumptions. Yeah yeah, assumptions make an ass out of you and uption but the fact remains that some people don't want to share information and that's just plain selfish on the part of everyone involved. That's all.

It's the reason SO many people are getting so pissed off with this place because some (if not many) people keep little groups together and have little conversations and keep everyone else out of it regarding things that will affect everyone. But yeah, we'll let the staff and those few decide what happens to the game that we ALL play. Yep. That's where I wanna play. Yep. Not!

------------------
~Jeanine

If you can't say something nice about someone, come sit by me! reg

By the way, I like the way this topic is going

[This message has been edited by Zanagodly (edited 09-07-2001).] reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Zanagodly:
I don't understand how a large group of people paying the full fee to register for Simucon aren't told of this meeting since it affects EVERYONE. Also, that was a very large chunk of GM time that could of spent with other gamers? Instead the person paying 20 dollars sits in on a lengthy and very intereseting conversation.

By the way, I like the way this topic is going

[This message has been edited by Zanagodly (edited 09-07-2001).]

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Aw, but don't you know? We're not over 160 levels so we're not prithy to that kind of information. They'll hide with the people they made a big booboo with in the back and work out a plan, maybe even bribe, to make up for their screwup. You don't have to see that. It doesn't pertain to you so why worry about it? Right?

That's like holding a meeting for people who are presently playing rogues about changes to rogues but no one else can hear or know about it because those people don't play a rogue yet.

Yeah.. riiiiiight.

------------------
~Jeanine

If you can't say something nice about someone, come sit by me! reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Zanagodly:
I don't understand how a large group of people paying the full fee to register for Simucon aren't told of this meeting since it affects EVERYONE. Also, that was a very large chunk of GM time that could of spent with other gamers? Instead the person paying 20 dollars sits in on a lengthy and very intereseting conversation.

By the way, I like the way this topic is going

[This message has been edited by Zanagodly (edited 09-07-2001).]

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And just how does it affect EVERYONE? If Simutronics decides to make everyone above the age cap drop to 160, does that affect your character? No, it only affects those who are above the cap, so what business is it of anyone elses?

I didn't go to Simucon to participate in any seminars, or to go to this 'meeting', I went to meet the people I play with in the game every day, and am lucky enough to have friends that could spare the floor space in their room for me to stay.

The discussion that took place at Simucon originally did not include any Simu staff, and was never intended to. As it was, staff was only present for but a small portion of the discussion of the issue, and only then at the insistence of a drunken idiot who made an ass out of himself and caused the discussion to disperse.

A lost ranger
reg

quote:

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I will not debate age cap compensation here. And any compensations, proposals, agreements, etc., that may or may not take place are between Simutronics and those individuals involved.

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quote:

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Anyhow, my opinion on the situation is that it's between Simu and those affected.

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Why not debate? Why is it only left to those affected? Sounds like some big coverup.

Just from the way everything else is handled by Simu, it's like they really should use some of the money we give them for some business management and etiquette classes.

~~~~~~~~~
Definition of "used pastures"

Any pasture that has been grazed by a heard of cows for over forty years.

[This message has been edited by Cassioppia (edited 09-07-2001).] reg

Mike

Zanagan

[This message has been edited by Zanagodly (edited 09-07-2001).] reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Zanagodly:
Yes EVERY character is affected by this, because the level 200+ people reallocating is unbalanced to the rest of us. My character is level 138 wizard, used to be good, but recent changes have really decreased his power. IF Suvar was able to reallocate for dropping to level 160 he could turn his already suckey character into the best possible wizard you can have at level 160 based on current GP changes, while I'm hung out to dry. When I eventually reach 160 my character will be VERY inferior to his and for the simple reason "he got a lot of levels past what was expected." That's a reason to make him a superwizard?
If reallocation isn't possible for all, then these characters shoudl be dropped to 160 with the same stats/skills they had at that level to begin with.

Mike

Zanagan

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The key part is "based on current GP changes". Times change. A "perfect" character isn't perfect later on (Greentide being a prime example).

I really don't see why anyone really cares in the first place.

If Suvar is made a level 10 million wizard with infinite casting ability - so what? How much deader can he make something if he wards it by 500, or 9 million?

Unless you go against him in the gladiator games thats held once every 2 years, you really shouldn't have anything to worry about. The "he'd be more formidable in an invasion, etc. than I would be" argument doesn't fly because a totally optimized level 160 person is FAR less powerful and far less unbalancing than a level 200-250+ person.

If they reallocate - big deal. A reallocated level 160 has less impact and if thats what it takes to get'em to voluntarily drop up to 100 levels, so be it. reg

Mike

Zanagan

[This message has been edited by Zanagodly (edited 09-07-2001).] reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Zanagodly:
Well I took pride in having a powerful character, now some wizard who isn't even fully doubled in spells is gonna be the best wizard in the game. Many a times Scintillion and I would laugh over how crappy some of the characters are out there, and suvar was one of the classics to make fun of. All of a sudden Suvar is a "godly" wizard...the planet isn't prepared for that kind of change.

Mike

Zanagan

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Well, at least you can take solace in the fact that its probably a new soul controlling Suvar's body anyhow - assuming he even sticks around (never know, might pull a Greentide and re-roll).

The satisfaction of knowing that you did your accomplishments on your own is something that is rare - and something of which that you should be quite proud. reg

Sonic reg

Mike

Zanagan reg

-John

------------------
AIM: High Lord 42o
EMail: djdisapate@djdisapate.com
---------------------
www.djdisapate.com
www.eternalbeats.net
www.eraver.net
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(Ever wonder if rubber chickens think people are funny?)

[This message has been edited by edge (edited 09-07-2001).] reg

But then again in a Nintendo/Playstation World, people are obsessed with numbers.

-Jira reg

quote:

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Originally posted by GOD:
Ya, mike, i remember at simucon when me and ryan (scintillion) would walk around makeing fun of all the [bad] charecters and what there players looked like...too bad suvar wasnt there to make fun of...

-John

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That's real mature.
reg

Sonic reg

-John

------------------
AIM: High Lord 42o
EMail: djdisapate@djdisapate.com
---------------------
www.djdisapate.com
www.eternalbeats.net
www.eraver.net
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(Ever wonder if rubber chickens think people are funny?) reg

Sonic reg

quote:

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Alfador posted:
Seeing as how you are also a raver, your judgement is pretty lacking. =P
Sonic

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Man, thats wrong...i havnt raved in a while, all i do is DJ at them now. Thank you very much.

-John

------------------
AIM: High Lord 42o
EMail: djdisapate@djdisapate.com
---------------------
www.djdisapate.com
www.eternalbeats.net
www.eraver.net
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(Ever wonder if rubber chickens think people are funny?) reg

Sonic reg

Mike

Zanagan reg

-John

------------------
AIM: High Lord 42o
EMail: djdisapate@djdisapate.com
---------------------
www.djdisapate.com
www.eternalbeats.net
www.eraver.net
---------------------
(Ever wonder if rubber chickens think people are funny?) reg

For the 9 people that are above th age cap. Nothing they can give them will make them go back down.

Why?

Let's think about this...

Angellisa. Nothing she can't bind. She has a cleric that is almost to the cap now. She will just play others of hers. No big deal. She will be able to spell up, heal, pick and bind anything for them. She is very wealthy too. Why would she go back? Her age is what makes her famous.

Malok. He can make 2m+ a day cash hunting. Has only himself and helps his RL brother out in the lands. What can you give him? Nothing.

Drizzsdt. His ego will never let him lower his age. He has everything he wants.

Jadall. What can you give her? To make her go back? Nothing.

and the others. They have all they want. They are wealthy by our standards. They have the levels. They can baby a character through the levels now. Nothing but a god can kill them.

Now why would the even reallocate? No hunting area in the near future will they have to learn from.

Simutronics knew this problem was here for years. The age cap is years to late. Just like breakage.

I know I am creeping up on it the age cap. But it is about to increase. But what bothers me the most. Why do I want to play a game that has a end? A point when you say, I win.

The diversity is leaving the lands. Cookie cutter characters are what they want. You find a advantage and spend a couple years trying to take advantage of it to realize, you are no longer viable. Great future we got. When the players don't count anymore.

edge reg

Mike

Zanagan reg

-John

------------------
AIM: High Lord 42o
EMail: djdisapate@djdisapate.com
---------------------
www.djdisapate.com
www.eternalbeats.net
www.eraver.net
---------------------
(Ever wonder if rubber chickens think people are funny?) reg

Would it really make them that much different to be 160?

GAME OVER.

~~~~~~~~~~~
What's the bus driver charge for a ride these days? A quarter?

Hmm.. I wonder why the emergency exit is always popped on this bus. Oh, must be how the driver fits in.

I don't even want to think of how that nose felt in those dirty old fields. reg

Sonic reg

-John

------------------
AIM: High Lord 42o
EMail: djdisapate@djdisapate.com
---------------------
www.djdisapate.com
www.eternalbeats.net
www.eraver.net
---------------------
(Ever wonder if rubber chickens think people are funny?) reg

Sonic reg

-John

------------------
AIM: High Lord 42o
EMail: djdisapate@djdisapate.com
---------------------
www.djdisapate.com
www.eternalbeats.net
www.eraver.net
---------------------
(Ever wonder if rubber chickens think people are funny?) reg

As for my char, hey, she stinks. I doubt she'll make it to 75 trains.

~~~~~~~~
Everything I say or do is done of my own free will and utter amusement. It's not my fault you're a psycho with so many screws loose, you make up all these lies.

It's like, the wheels on the bus go round and round, but the ones in the head don't. reg

As usual, I stay pretty well informed. Its a skill I've had for many years here.

Its a balance issue, I made no snide remarks. Honestly I don't give two bits about you or any of the other Nine. I care about game balance.

Its unbalancing to give you or any of the others benefits due to over reaching the games parimeters.

This is not personal at all. I'm pretty good friends with a couple of the those folks who are a part of the Nine. I bear no ill will to them at all. I do bear ill will
to Melissa for even considering such a concept. Its bad game design.

Jim/Celtar reg

Jim/Celtar

p.s.: I can only think of two times since you started playing that you irked me. One was in Myklians, where you would use two characters and sit on the gen spot for hours at a time. And the other time was in the rune room into Sheru. You were babbling on and on about SIMUCON and the bus ride. Very ooc and very bothersome. I ignored both times with my characters that were hunting those areas. In the case of the Myklians I had my priest go kill harbs instead for fun.
reg

If they leave, they leave and its the player's choice. I won't be affected either way. Friends in GS come, and friends in GS go. Its something I have been dealing with since the move to the web. Life goes on.

Nobody is saying they can't come back in a few years when Simu might possibly make areas they can learn in again.

Buckwheet reg

-John

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AIM: High Lord 42o
EMail: djdisapate@djdisapate.com
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www.djdisapate.com
www.eternalbeats.net
www.eraver.net
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(Ever wonder if rubber chickens think people are funny?) reg

Why this is important to EVERYONE having a simu account is simple. Precedent.

Simu doesn't give compensation for game changes. Its that simple. Its been that way since the sorcerors got screwed with mana and it has been in effect through lockpicking changes, mstrike, redux, etc. etc.

By compensating these notorious nine, they compromise past and future game changes.

Ok, so the nine got to change, well now logically every square that spent hundreds of MTP learning as many spells as they can get, now get to reallocate because their redux is totally weakened. Now everyone who wishes to train more or less in mstrike gets to reallocate. All sorcerors get to switch around their stat placement. Once breakage is implemented everybody can trade in their weapons for market value silvers and replace them with a weapon for market value with better breakage. Once multi ops is a requirement then everybody gets to reallocate for it yet again. When the new stat placement system comes in, everybody has to reallocate stats to that level, then train all their levels over again under the new system (retaining all experience of course). Oh, and we all get free DSL internet connections because of the change to the new front end.

That about covers that.

'lood
"This isn't NAM, this is bowling, their are rules!" reg

I don't like the age-cap and still haven't heard a reasonable explanation as to why it was implemented. I find it hard to believe that the few over the age-cap can have that big of an impact on "game balance". Especially, since one of those elders refuses to get off his hinney and go with me to fight in invasions no matter how much I nag <grumble>!

I enjoy all the differences in Elanthia, including the souls that have attained ages I could never imagine. How boring it will be when all the elders reach 160 trainings and can progress no further.

Summer reg

-John

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AIM: High Lord 42o
EMail: djdisapate@djdisapate.com
---------------------
www.djdisapate.com
www.eternalbeats.net
www.eraver.net
---------------------
(Ever wonder if rubber chickens think people are funny?) reg

quote:

---

Originally posted by kelood:
Some people have asked why it effects anybody but the notorious nine. Most reasons given are basicly self serving, selfish reason given in the name of game balance (which is not to say they aren't valid complaints, but its hard to argue world wide game balance over 9 characters).

Why this is important to EVERYONE having a simu account is simple. Precedent.

Simu doesn't give compensation for game changes. Its that simple. Its been that way since the sorcerors got screwed with mana and it has been in effect through lockpicking changes, mstrike, redux, etc. etc.

By compensating these notorious nine, they compromise past and future game changes.

Ok, so the nine got to change, well now logically every square that spent hundreds of MTP learning as many spells as they can get, now get to reallocate because their redux is totally weakened. Now everyone who wishes to train more or less in mstrike gets to reallocate. All sorcerors get to switch around their stat placement. Once breakage is implemented everybody can trade in their weapons for market value silvers and replace them with a weapon for market value with better breakage. Once multi ops is a requirement then everybody gets to reallocate for it yet again. When the new stat placement system comes in, everybody has to reallocate stats to that level, then train all their levels over again under the new system (retaining all experience of course). Oh, and we all get free DSL internet connections because of the change to the new front end.

That about covers that.

'lood
"This isn't NAM, this is bowling, their are rules!"

---

Precedent has already been set in at least one instance of Simu downgrading an item or character, and compensation was given.

None of the examples you gave are anywhere close to what the situation would be if Simu decided to drop everyone to the age cap. How can you even compare losing over 100 trainings of hard work with changes such as multi ops and such that could have been TRAINED FOR? GMs have said for years now that we needed to train in multi-ops, but I can't recall them saying years ago 'oh, you should stop training now if you're close to 160, because we're going to put a cap there once you reach 200+'

Game changes such as armor, spells, redux, mstrike, etc.. all have one thing in common- nothing is being physically taken from you. You may have lost CS when the CS changes went in, but you still retained all your spell ranks. You may have 50 spells as a rogue instead of redux, but you'll still have those 50 spell ranks. Compare that to having the last 3 years of your training wiped away, period, without reallocation. Know what that means? That means the last 3 years of changes you have NO chance to adapt to, where EVERYONE else in the lands has had the option to. Sure, it lets them overcome some of the training mistakes that have become visible recently, while leaving others out in the cold. Once done though, they are stuck, unable to adapt to any NEW changes that will arise.

A lost ranger reg

Mike

Zanagan reg

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zanagodly:
Thats why I think if they drop them down to 160, it should be with the placement they had at 160. The ability to adapt to the DRASTIC changes in the past 2 years is an extremely powerful thing. Getting a character to level 160 would take me approximately 3 years, which is relatively quick for most. In 3 years time, I could reroll zanagan, train him up to 160 and be Suvar's equal. Thats a LOOOT of time and money invested. The argument can be made..."well he spent a lot of time and money to reach level 204 (?)," but the fact remains he is being told "By dropping to 160, you can turn your terrible character into the most powerful wizard based on current circumstances. The day I see level 160 Suvar in the lands, with not a single rank of lockpicking, is the day that clearly shows that Roleplaying is not heavily factored in the decision these GMs have.

Mike

Zanagan

---

The point I'm trying to make is... These characters have been over 160 trainings for years, and have adapted to changes that have occurred throughout those trainings past 160. Dropping them to the age cap, without allowing them to have that chance to adapt is hardly fair, though at the same time gives them a distinct advantage in overcoming training flaws that have become obvious in the past year. (CS changes, armor, multi-ops, lockpicking, etc..)

I find it hard to imagine that Simu would be able to convince any of these characters to drop to the cap willingly WITHOUT some form of reallocation, seeing as they have nothing to lose by remaining the oldest, and starting a new character with perfect stats and skills that could be 160 in a year.

A lost ranger

reg

If it's only nine that is giving game balance issues in invasions and such. Simple solution to that. Warp them to Teras or EN saying something that so and so god felt they didn't need to get involved. As far as I know. None has accross realms items.

If they do make them drop levels. Only thing I can see is, transfer the levels to another character. Because they did earn those levels. I seen characters from the last reallocation. They are nothing great now with the gp changes.

The part that really ticks me is. They knew this problem was here for years and said they are going to do nothing about it. Everyone trained to have picking and such to learn after the rift. What should be done for us that did train in picking only to learn?

Now on the issue of Suvar, he got froze when he was one rank from brig, one rank from mstrike. That hurt. But he trained to be the ultimate enchanter hoping that wizard spell circle would be the biggest factor in enchanting.

I know Angellisa didn't know how to place stats when she was born. How many spirit you got now? You worked hard for the spirit you got. Why should you give it up?

I just think that it was to late for the changes. Set the cap at the highest level attained already. But that causes problems. Anyone got a solution without screwing over the player?

I just can't think of a fair resolution myself.

edge reg

Personally, I would rather wait the extra year than have a wizard with 80 ranks in picking boxes ::gaze::

Grhim's player,

Chris reg

Sonic reg

Simutronics really doesn't owe you anything beyond access to the game. You don't earn or other wise own anything.

You didn't work for levels. You enjoyed the ride and the game.

Darren H. reg

quote:

---

None of the examples you gave are anywhere close to what the situation would be if Simu decided to drop everyone to the age cap. How can you even compare losing over 100 trainings of hard work with changes such as multi ops and such that could have been TRAINED FOR? GMs have said for years now that we needed to train in multi-ops, but I can't recall them saying years ago 'oh, you should stop training now if you're close to 160, because we're going to put a cap there once you reach 200+'

---

I believe common sense tells you that there is something a bit strange in getting 50-100 levels above the games scope.

In fact, you could go as far as to say that its a big case of mechanics abuse. They knowingly used loopholes in certain experience mechanics to gain levels outside the normal bounds of the game.

They knew what they were doing, how couldn't they? No, simu didn't come out and say "there will be a level cap at ___ level".

They shouldn't have to.As in every case where a select few recieve high advantages of exploiting game mechanics, those mechanics will eventually be changed.

Picking kobold boxes for 3 years to get 100 levels past the maximum level for 75% of the population is not using the mechanics in the way they were intended.

quote:

---

Game changes such as armor, spells, redux, mstrike, etc.. all have one thing in common- nothing is being physically taken from you. You may have lost CS when the CS changes went in, but you still retained all your spell ranks. You may have 50 spells as a rogue instead of redux, but you'll still have those 50 spell ranks. Compare that to having the last 3 years of your training wiped away, period, without reallocation. Know what that means? That means the last 3 years of changes you have NO chance to adapt to, where EVERYONE else in the lands has had the option to. Sure, it lets them overcome some of the training mistakes that have become visible recently, while leaving others out in the cold. Once done though, they are stuck, unable to adapt to any NEW changes that will arise.

---

Yes, i agree their are major differences.

1. The age cap, unlike many other changes, does not effect character leveling.
Unlike alot of the other changes (sorceror mana for one), the notorious nine will still be able to level just as effectively at 160 as they did before.

What some of the other changes did is hinder or totally wipeout any chance of experience gain.

2.Not Gamewide
Most other changes effected a large majority of the population, and effected future generations of the population for years to come. In the grand scheme of things, the age cap drop down will only effect .001% of the population, and has no effect on the rest of the population now or ever.

You say they can't adapt to new game changes, what exactly do you mean by that? Of course, they are stuck at 160. just like everyone else who reaches 160 . I don't really see where your going with that one. It's not like they won't be able to level, they were able to level without any creatures whatsoever for 100 levels, surely new creatures or mechanics changes won't effect them too much.

'lood

reg

2. Drop them to level 160, and give them something meritous of losing 100+ levels, and several years of concentrated effort on the 1 personna.
People will complain.
"They got <fill in perk>, and thats not fair."
"They abused mechanics...", etc, etc.

Blah, blah, blah. If they abused anything, they'd be banned. They aren't banned - so obviously the people that feel they abused mechanics aren't on Simutronics staff.

As far as perks - nothing precluded anyone else besides the 9, to focus on ONE personna instead of rolling up numerous other characters over the years, playing other games like Dragonrealms, working at their job, and other hobbies, etc., etc.

These 9 people put the time in, and earned the levels. Everyone else didn't. Therefore you don't deserve the perk.

3. Forcefully drop them with no compensation whatsoever. This is completely bogus. And there isn't anyone that can reasonably and truthfully say this would be a fair solution.

*******************************************

If it were me - I wouldn't want to take the heat on the issue, and I'd sit right where I am, roll up an army of optimized newbs - and jack them through the trainings, and get them to level 160 in 1.5-2 years.

That way - no heat about "you got <fill in perk>", you keep your god-like character plus you get your optimized newb army (which is the alleged big deal for reallocation).

A level 250+ person plus an army of optimized newbs is far more unbalancing than ONE level 160 reallocated person.

I fail to see how people try to argue that reallocating ONE character is more unbalancing than level 250+ people walking around, that can create their own army of optimized people in the first place - and give up nothing other than a little time to do it.
[And they've already demonstrated that they ARE willing to put in the time to get the levels]

reg

Mike

Zanagan reg

quote:

---

Originally posted by kelood:
I believe common sense tells you that there is something a bit strange in getting 50-100 levels above the games scope.

In fact, you could go as far as to say that its a big case of mechanics abuse. They knowingly used loopholes in certain experience mechanics to gain levels outside the normal bounds of the game.

They knew what they were doing, how couldn't they? No, simu didn't come out and say "there will be a level cap at ___ level".

They shouldn't have to.As in every case where a select few recieve high advantages of exploiting game mechanics, those mechanics will eventually be changed.

Picking kobold boxes for 3 years to get 100 levels past the maximum level for 75% of the population is not using the mechanics in the way they were intended.

---

I don't see how picking boxes, or healing can be considered mechanics abuse for gaining levels. Unlike the 75% of the population you state, 100% of the population has the ability to train in lockpicking. 100% of the empath population has the ability to heal and learn past the 'normal scope of the game'. So just how is this mechanics abuse, by utilizing something that everyone else has the same chance to utilize?

Simu knew the problem with the picking mechanics, and what did they do? They changed it to make it even easier for a non-rogue to learn from picking boxes, thus giving their approval in my book, for whatever may come of it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by kelood:
Yes, i agree their are major differences.

1. [b]The age cap, unlike many other changes, does not effect character leveling.
Unlike alot of the other changes (sorceror mana for one), the notorious nine will still be able to level just as effectively at 160 as they did before.

What some of the other changes did is hinder or totally wipeout any chance of experience gain.

2.Not Gamewide
Most other changes effected a large majority of the population, and effected future generations of the population for years to come. In the grand scheme of things, the age cap drop down will only effect .001% of the population, and has no effect on the rest of the population now or ever.

[/B]

---

Let me ask you this then. What would you do if today you logged into GS, and Simu's server had crashed. The only backup files they had were from 3 years ago, thus sending every character back 3 years in training. Is that fair? What if it only happened to 9 people, but everyone else got lucky?

Myself, if Simu decided to force these characters to drop to the cap, I think it would only be fair if they took the last 3 years worth of work away from everyone else too, UNLESS they offered some form of compensation. How else can you justify taking something this large from 9 people, that worked HARD for what they attained? Yes, we all know Simu has that right, but it doesn't make it RIGHT.

quote:

---

Originally posted by kelood:
You say they can't adapt to new game changes, what exactly do you mean by that? Of course, they are stuck at 160. just like everyone else who reaches 160 . I don't really see where your going with that one. It's not like they won't be able to level, they were able to level without any creatures whatsoever for 100 levels, surely new creatures or mechanics changes won't effect them too much.

'lood

---

You misunderstood my comment, let me try again.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Game changes such as armor, spells, redux, mstrike, etc.. all have one thing in common- nothing is being physically taken from you. You may have lost CS when the CS changes went in, but you still retained all your spell ranks. You may have 50 spells as a rogue instead of redux, but you'll still have those 50 spell ranks. Compare that to having the last 3 years of your training wiped away, period, without reallocation. Know what that means? That means the last 3 years of changes you have NO chance to adapt to, where EVERYONE else in the lands has had the option to. Sure, it lets them overcome some of the training mistakes that have become visible recently, while leaving others out in the cold. Once done though, they are stuck, unable to adapt to any NEW changes that will arise.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What this statement was meaning to say is that once they are allowed to reallocate, they will be stuck, FAR worse off in the long run than most characters. They have the advantage now, but it will be a downfall in the end. Take a look at any character from the first reallocation. They aren't exactly what you would consider optimized characters in today's world.

In the end, it all comes down to how unbalancing Simu believes these 200+ characters to be. It may not be a problem now, but in a few years when everyone is sitting at the 160 cap, and there's still these 9 above it, with no future critters older in sight... well, it's human nature to want what someone else has, all the more so when it is unattainable.

A lost ranger
reg

And also, I do believe these people should certainly receive items for compensation if they are willing to drop to 160, but not the reallocation. And of course the items would be attuned to the person, for them not to go off to sale for thousands of dollars, hundreds of millions of coins. I think I fear more those items given to friends, and "other souls" to use for their own benefit.

Mike

Zanagan

[This message has been edited by Zanagodly (edited 09-08-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Zanagodly (edited 09-08-2001).] reg

Both of which, they can already get on their own merits without dropping any levels at all.

Reallocation, per se, can be achieved through rolling up optimized newbs and jacking through 160 trainings in 1.5 years.

Items can be acquired by treasure hunting and annhilating the various hunting area's treasure system. Imagine if the 9 actually organized and decided to rape a small area like the Rift, or Teras. I'm sure no one would complain about that.

And as an aside - the items they bought wouldn't be attuned.

So, the 2 big incentives are things that they can get on their own merits as is, plus keep their own god-like character, and not have to take any trash talk from anyone about all the "perks" that they got for dropping 100+ levels.

Sounds simple to me. Keep the levels and get everything you wanted in the first place.
You get to have your own personal army of optimized people plus non-attuned equipment - and tick everyone else off that wanted you to be the way you are (i.e. age capped out, and level 250+) in the process by annhilating their hunting areas. reg

quote:

---

I don't see how picking boxes, or healing can be considered mechanics abuse for gaining levels. Unlike the 75% of the population you state, 100% of the population has the ability to train in lockpicking. 100% of the empath population has the ability to heal and learn past the 'normal scope of the game'. So just how is this mechanics abuse, by utilizing something that everyone else has the same chance to utilize?

---

100% of the population had the ability to do nearly all of the mechanics exploits. Just because simu isn't banning the nine doesn't mean they didn't go beyond the bounds of the game.

No character was meant to reach 160+ levels in the game at its current state. Simu knew about this for awhile, but decided to do nothing about it until now, it doesn't make the actions any less abusive.

The 75% figure i used is my best guestimate for the non-empath non 30 rank in picking people in the lands.

'lood reg

quote:

---

Originally posted by kelood:
100% of the population had the ability to do nearly all of the mechanics exploits. Just because simu isn't banning the nine doesn't mean they didn't go beyond the bounds of the game.

No character was meant to reach 160+ levels in the game at its current state. Simu knew about this for awhile, but decided to do nothing about it until now, it doesn't make the actions any less abusive.

The 75% figure i used is my best guestimate for the non-empath non 30 rank in picking people in the lands.

'lood

---

That's where our opinions differ. I see it as Simu put the systems in place, were quite aware of the situation, and allowed these people to train well past what the 'game limits' were, and yet did nothing. They could very easily have instituted a level cap when the first player hit 160 (or whatever number they felt was too high at the time), yet they did nothing to slow the advance.

The two primary forms of advancement past normal hunting means are/were lockpicking, and healing. Both practices serve dual purposes-to provide a service to oneself or others, and to provide learning. In order to constitute abuse in my book, Simu would have had to make an attempt to stem the learning from either of these practices and those 'abusing' them would need to find a loophole around such attempts. Neither case occurred. Simu COULD have capped experience gain from picking boxes at 1 exp per box, they could have capped learning from empaths past a certain age at 1 per wound. Both would have still allowed one to learn, just very very slowly. Experience cap gains are already in place on other methods of learning- Imbueing, imbedding, enchanting, janitorial, and foraging all create learning, and all are capped to some extent. Granted, capping experience from boxes at 1 per box, or even 5 would have irritated a lot of people, but would it not have been better in the long run? As far as capping the learning from healing, it's my own personal opinion that the learning system for healing is screwed as it is and should have had an overhaul LONG ago.

The only difference between a lvl 10 player and a lvl 250+ player using these systems is that the older of the two can do it much much easier. Both garner the same benefits, both require the same skills to use these systems, only difference is that now one of them gains nothing from it.

A lost ranger reg

Somehow I am to believe that the only thing in order to perfect ones skills beyond that of the great rift is sitting on ones backside all day, picking boxes? Sorry but from an RP perspective, there is no way in the world someone like Drizzsdt could double the amount of skill in using weaponary just by opening boxes that those who had honed their skills for months in the great rift had done.

Healing is another matter, and a bit of an odder one. I wish that simutronics was a bit less concerned with making absolute balance between the professions, and would make some of them wield more benefits, but perhaps take 10k more per level, or perhaps the ones with less benefits could go higher in level than those with the benefits. There is an infinite number of possibilities that don't include absolute, no differentium in power, balance.

Grhim's player,

Chris reg

Is the only way to gain experience in your opinion hunting? To me that would be wrong. Lockpicking had no bug, it always provided experience infact recently it was re-vamped and the experience for picking boxes stayed the same.

The way I see your statement is that anytime someone overuses a mechanic, they are somehow abusing it. I suppose then hunting past 20 trainings is mechanics abuse, using major shock too much is mechanics abuse, fogging to town or using a gold ring all the time is mechanics abuse, and the list goes on...

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg

Well for some of us the game was a game and not a job. We don't WORK HARD in a GAME, many of us have FUN and you are not owed a single thing past access and time spent in the game besides that time you HAD when accessing it before.

This is a roleplaying game and the journey is the enjoyment. There is no WINNING it and nothing you do will earn you anything except enjoyment of playing it as you go.

Reread the policy and TOS and then you will understand.

Darren H.
reg

v.i. to engage in activity designed to achieve a particular purpose and requiring an expenditure of considerable effort

to earn one's living

to be effective, have the desired or intended effect

to be an employee of a specified sort

to get into a specified condition or position by movement

to ferment

to show emotion, esp. distress, by muscular twitches or nervous movements of the limbs

to strain, esp. in a heavy sea

to move or sink very slowly

to proceed or make progress in some action or task

to apply oneself with effort, esp. to one's studies

to use wiles or persuasion

to use specified materials or techniques

to come to a satisfactory conclusion

v.t. to cause to labor

to bring about by labor or as if by labor

to cause to be transformed by one's efforts

to make (one's way) or cause (oneself) to advance by slow stages and with effort

to excite or stimulate the emotions of

to sew or make by needlework

to pay for (one's passage) in a ship by providing some service of equivalent value to the fare

to pay for (oneself or one's way) by doing a paid job or jobs or by some service

to repay (a debt) over a period by payments or services to the creditor at intervals

to solve (an equation)

to have (a region, etc.) as one's sphere of operations

to cause to operate

to bring (oneself or an object) into or out of a specified condition by slow and esp. laborious effort

to insert gradually by pressure or other careful manipulation

to mix or blend, esp. by stirring

to get rid of by expending energy

to find an outlet for (rage, excess energy, etc.)

(with 'out') to find (a solution or compromise) or solve (a problem) by an effort of the mind or will

(pop., with 'it') to contrive

(with 'up') to perfect the preformance by practice

*********************************************

Regardless if you roleplay 100% of the time, it does take at least *some* effort to turn on your computer, and log in.

And I seriously doubt that most reasonable persons would argue that Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods didn't "work" to become among the best at the games that they played. reg

That isn't the point of the post. The point is you are not "owed" anything in playing this game.

Besides the enjoyment for the time you play as it happens you don't earn anything in regards to "rights" for your character. Just as mechanic changes might affect a character's current effectiveness so would a change of levels or subtraction of them. Simu states that quite clearly.

Simutronics does not owe anyone anything for accumulation of wealth, items, fame or experience. You pay for access. Anything they do is purely their choice and whim. Just as everything is.

Darren H. reg

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hiway:
I could use any sort of context in anyon'e statements to ellicit the meaning I would want....

---

Uh, ok.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hiway:
The point is you are not "owed" anything in playing this game.

Besides the enjoyment for the time you play as it happens you don't earn anything in regards to "rights" for your character. Just as mechanic changes might affect a character's current effectiveness so would a change of levels or subtraction of them. Simu states that quite clearly.

Simutronics does not owe anyone anything for accumulation of wealth, items, fame or experience. You pay for access. Anything they do is purely their choice and whim. Just as everything is.

Darren H.

---

There's the Legal thing to do, the Moral thing to do, and the Ethical thing to do.

Just because someone has a Legal right to do something, doesn't make it morally or ethically correct. Just as the reverse is also the same case.

As per your statement "Anything they do is purely their choice and whim.".
Simutronics approached these persons to see what they could get worked out. So obviously, Simutronics wants to do something based on "their choice and whim". reg

quote:

---

Originally posted by Magister:
There's the Legal thing to do, the Moral thing to do, and the Ethical thing to do.

Just because someone has a Legal right to do something, doesn't make it morally or ethically correct. Just as the reverse is also the same case.

As per your statement "[b]Anything they do is purely their choice and whim.".
Simutronics approached these persons to see what they could get worked out. So obviously, Simutronics wants to do something based on "their choice and whim".[/B]

---

Was the "Uh, ok" meant to endear me to your point? I missed something.

Point is it's all between Simu and those people. Any guessing or assuming of what, if anything, will or has happened is between those two parties. You will never be able to officially confirm anything exchanged between them.

Simutronics will most likely keep all information of what they do confidential.

Darren H.

[This message has been edited by Hiway (edited 09-09-2001).] reg

I'm just going to assume that you have NO IDEA, not even the SLIGHTEST clue who Magister is.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg

quote:

---

I disagree 105% that lockpicking or healing are game mechanics abuse. I don't even see the logic behind that statement. You say it's because the GMs never intended people to get to 160+ picking boxes... so I assume the GMs intended people to become 140 in under 2 years powerhunting like crazy?

---

Thats your choice to disagree or not, but i'll explain the logic behind it.

Abusing game mechanics isn't bug abuse. Exploiting bugs and abusing mechanics are two seperate things.

Also, mechanics abuse isn't just "something you get banned for if you get caught". It can be a many number of things.

As a programmer, I would assume you can relate to phrases like "spirit of the game".
Now, what you may disagree on , is if utilizing said game mechanics to go beyond the bounds of the game is a punishable offense, or strictly the fault of the programmer. "They coded the thing, its their fault" type thing.
But, wether you agree with that or not, it still should be consider abusing the mechanics. Maybe abusing is too harsh a word, but I haven't searched for an adequate euphamism yet. I come from the logic of : its the programmers fault and the player shouldn't be punished. But, thats not simu's thinking, or sony's, nor the majority of other online game companies.

Companies have narrowed the scope of "abuse" to things that you should be punished for, but its a much bigger picture.

As i've said before, mechanics abuse is utilizing system mechanics to a degree outside the bounds or "scope" of the game as the creators have intended.

Its like getting twelve of your buddies to help knock the moles down in that stupid arcade game so you can get all the tickets possible. Yeah, unless theirs a sign up, no one said you can't do that. But, thats definately not the way the game was intended to be played.

CS was abused, it was changed.
Haste was abused, it was changed.
Some creatures were abused, they were changed.
The treasure system was abused, it was revamped.
etc. etc.

Now the leveling system has been abused, so it will also be changed.

The logic, in as best as time will allow for now.

'lood reg

quote:

---

Originally posted by kelood:
As i've said before, mechanics abuse is utilizing system mechanics to a degree outside the bounds or "scope" of the game as the creators have intended.

---

Since the game was revamped last year to allow expansion beyond level 300, obviously there was no abuse. The game's creators made it so expansion for those ultra-high levels was possible.

quote:

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Originally posted by kelood:
Its like getting twelve of your buddies to help knock the moles down in that stupid arcade game so you can get all the tickets possible. Yeah, unless theirs a sign up, no one said you can't do that. But, thats definately not the way the game was intended to be played.

---

This is a really good idea. Time to go hit the arcade. reg

Sonic reg

None of the things you listed were changed as a result of game mechanics abuse. They were changed because the game reached a point where the old mechanics were unsatisfactory. Regardless of whether people abused them or not, that's not why they changed.

People claim Scintillion is the reason why Haste changed... folks let me tell you... Haste was meant to change way before Scintillion existed. Haste was meant to change before the Isle opened. Haste was meant to change years and years ago and the fact that someone used it like crazy was not what resulted in its change.

You make a point about how we have no choice but to follow Simu's method of reasoning. You state that most companies have narrowed the scope of what exactly "abuse" is.

The problem is that no GM, NONE have ever stated that healing, raising, or lockpicking is a form of game mechanics abuse. Simu has not EVER said this, infact they don't even think it's wrong to engage in those activities for the purpose of gaining experience or gaining levels. So if we are to go by what Simu says, then let's not make the claim that those activities are mechanics abuse. If we are to go by what Simu says, then it may very well be that the older players will get compensation of some type. Infact I believe that you are the only one who has stated that any nonhunting method of gaining experience is game mechanics abuse in this arguement, not Simu, and not any other player.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg

I'm not saying that NO MECHANIC was ever changed due to abuse. I can think of several, however the ones you listed (with the exception of critters, there may have been some critters changed due to mechanics abuse) have not been changed because of abuse. The ones that have been abused were usually also greeted with a nice 60 day to a permanent lockout.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard reg

quote:

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Originally posted by LordKranar:
One more thing...

I'm not saying that NO MECHANIC was ever changed due to abuse. I can think of several, however the ones you listed (with the exception of critters, there may have been some critters changed due to mechanics abuse) have not been changed because of abuse. The ones that have been abused were usually also greeted with a nice 60 day to a permanent lockout.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

---

Exactly Kranar.

Example: Aanalar/Irathra/Randeis/Sunnan creating wands and selling them to the pawnshop. Yes, Irathra was already on thin-ice...that's why she and Aanalar were permanently banned. Randeis was unbanned, as was Sunnan.

I know that several people have said that Haste was changed because of Scintillion, well it really wasn't as Kranar said.

Another example: Scripting Timer implementation. Yes there were a ton of scripters doing very well at what they were doing. However, when you have Beautifulgreen hunting wasps with absolutely no one at the keyboard, that's a problem. When you have Banauge sitting in TSC healing people all day long...that's a problem. He has to be the fastest leveling story ever. What happened? Script Timer was implemented, and harsher scripting policy was put into effect.

Skins in Shadow Valley? Had always been a serious problem because a lot of people would go there simply to skin the hides because of their great prices. However...Bloodsnake makes 15 million in 2 days there...they change all the skins.

Just a few examples to back up Kranar's post.

reg

Love people who down play the effort it took to "make" banauge.

Was it wrong? In terms of the game sure.

Don't downplay the effort it took to make what ran Ban Ban.

Over 60 of his levels, (from about 30ish to 90ish) he did on a Macintosh right after the move to the web. There was no FE or script engine or anything for the Mac. It was black and white. He also wrote his own FE, and even with the script timer on the newer FE you can still get around it.

Fastest level story ever? Nah. I can duplicate what he did if they bring back the old exp formula and give me double exp like they did when they moved from the web.

For a while my empath was training about 3-4 times a week. Thats with the new formula and regular experience gain.

Buckwheet

[This message has been edited by Buckwheet (edited 09-09-2001).] reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Buckwheet:
heh.

Love people who down play the effort it took to "make" banauge.

Was it wrong? In terms of the game sure.

Don't downplay the effort it took to make what ran Ban Ban.

Over 60 of his levels, (from about 30ish to 90ish) he did on a Macintosh right after the move to the web. There was no FE or script engine or anything for the Mac. It was black and white. He also wrote his own FE, and even with the script timer on the newer FE you can still get around it.

Fastest level story ever? Nah. I can duplicate what he did if they bring back the old exp formula and give me double exp like they did when they moved from the web.

For a while my empath was training about 3-4 times a week. Thats with the new formula and regular experience gain.

Buckwheet

[This message has been edited by Buckwheet (edited 09-09-2001).]

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Didn't mean to downlplay it Buckwheet. Sorry reg

quote:

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Kelood, at least back up your claims with real points. None of the things you mentioned were abused. They merely yielded exceptional results compared to their alternatives. So they were changed as to broaden the options of everyone.

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thanks, i knew i wouldnt have to search for a good euphamism.
Yields exceptional results compared to their alternatives. That is a fine euphamism for abuse, though it is a bit long, ill keep using abuse for now.

quote:

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Since the game was revamped last year to allow expansion beyond level 300, obviously there was no abuse. The game's creators made it so expansion for those ultra-high levels was possible.

---

exactly. Pay close attention to what you said. revamped to allow expansion.

The games creators didn't intend for those high levels to be attained. They were (the levels), so now simu is playing catch-up, they have been playing catch-up for a long time. Simu has been running on the perverbial treadmill while the notorious nine grapes are dangled in front of their face. What the age cap does is stop the treadmill, give simu a breather, and try to build the game around THEM. They stepped off the basketball court, and now simu says timeout while they repaint the lines.

Don't get stuck on the word abuse. It has many bad connotations in our society and in gem. Child abuse, spousal abuse, "game mechanics abuse" = 90 day ban...
Whether anyone likes to believe it or not, or if simu wants to officially recognize it as abuse or not is entirely irrevelant.

quote:

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None of the things you listed were changed as a result of game mechanics abuse. They were changed because the game reached a point where the old mechanics were unsatisfactory. Regardless of whether people abused them or not, that's not why they changed.

---

this ones even more euphamistic. The prior mechanics were rendered unsatisfactory.
That one almost sounds like an accomplishment. "I rendered the prior version of haste unsatisfactory!"-- says Scintillion. "Oh, well,... congratulations!"

You say haste wasn't changed because of Scintillion, i say your wrong. Heres why:

Yes, haste was going to be changed for awhile. Breakage was going to be implemented for awhile. Alot of things WERE going to be implemented. Simu is notorious for putting things on the back burner and never actually getting to them. What someone like Scint does is say "hey, wait a minute, maybe we should actually get around to doing this. We were going to anyway, and this guy is abusing the crap out of it!". Scint didn't single handedly change haste, but he did move it from the back burner to front stage.

quote:

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You make a point about how we have no choice but to follow Simu's method of reasoning. You state that most companies have narrowed the scope of what exactly "abuse" is.

---

Not exactly.

quote:

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Companies have narrowed the scope of "abuse" to things that you should be punished for, but its a much bigger picture.

---

This is what i said. I say that what simu and other company's have done is to narrow the scope to only punishable offenses, but truly mechanics abuse covers much more.

Let me put it this way. Just because you aren't banned for something doesn't make it any less mechanics abuse.

quote:

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The problem is that no GM, NONE have ever stated that healing, raising, or lockpicking is a form of game mechanics abuse. Simu has not EVER said this, infact they don't even think it's wrong to engage in those activities for the purpose of gaining experience or gaining levels. So if we are to go by what Simu says, then let's not make the claim that those activities are mechanics abuse.

---

Come on Crayon, give me a little more credit than that.
Of course i'm not saying lockpicking is mechanics abuse. You act as though i believe all pickers should automatically recieve 90 day bans or something.

What they did do is abuse the leveling mechanics. They used lockpicking and healing and the experience system to get around the fact that their are no critters to hunt past a certain level. No character was ever meant to be 100 levels higher than the oldest critter in the game, and I hope you can agree on at least that point. If not then i can't say much else on the matter.

I will say this, for me to say "yeah, thats mechanics abuse" , no big deal. But if simu went out and said something like that, they would be opening a whole big can of worms that they would rather not mess with over 9 people. So take that into consideration. Just because simu says something is/isn't abuse, doesn't mean it is/isn't abuse. They have alot more factors to weigh than the truth.

'lood
"I am the Walrus"

[This message has been edited by kelood (edited 09-10-2001).] reg

Abuse of something more precious than mechanics? Yes.

Grhim's player,

Chris
reg

quote:

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Originally posted by kelood:
No character was ever meant to be 100 levels higher than the oldest critter in the game, and I hope you can agree on at least that point. If not then i can't say much else on the matter.

---

We'll have to disagree then. I view hunting as A means of getting experience/trainings - NOT as the SOLE means that pre-determines how old you should become when alternatives are available and viable.

quote:

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Originally posted by Magister:
Since the game was revamped last year to allow expansion beyond level 300, obviously there was no abuse. The game's creators made it so expansion for those ultra-high levels was possible.

---

quote:

---

Response by kelood:
exactly. Pay close attention to what you said. revamped to allow expansion.

The games creators didn't intend for those high levels to be attained. They were (the levels), so now simu is playing catch-up, they have been playing catch-up for a long time.

---

Again, I disagree. You say "they didn't intend for those high levels to be attained". I say they did.

The games creators revamped the game so levels could be attained BEYOND level 300. Currently, no one is BEYOND level 300. I only mentioned the revamping to demonstrate that the creator's were making it so persons would be able to keep on going.

The previous unrevamped mechanics allowed for the CURRENT levels that were attained.

And its not like that one day they were level 30, and 2 weeks later, BAM! they were level 250. It took YEARS for it to occur.

Regardless, we are talking hypothetical, attempting to "read the minds" of others and interpret their intentions which does nothing to change the situation as it stands today.

You say it was abuse. I say it wasn't.
You say it wasn't in the intent of its creators. I say it was, because it was known to be occuring, took years for it to occur, and was allowed.

reg

quote:

---

Mechanics abuse? No

Abuse of something more precious than mechanics? Yes.

Grhim's player,

Chris

---

quote:

---

This is a roleplaying game and the journey is the enjoyment. There is no WINNING it
and nothing you do will earn you anything except enjoyment of playing it as you go.

---

I couldn't agree more with both of you.

This discussion is a great example of the role-playing gap that is present in GS.

Those that beat the system are applauded for their 'hard work'. Apparently it was no easy task to come up with a FE and script to simply 'Nindendo' your way through levels.

I really need to stop reading GS message boards ::chuckles:: The more I read about GS the less I log into the game. reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Siara:
Those that beat the system are applauded for their 'hard work'. Apparently it was no easy task to come up with a FE and script to simply 'Nindendo' your way through levels.

---

Persons may disagree with the methods used, and the goal itself - similar to escaping from Alcatraz, or a great bank robbery.

The effort that it took to do something can still be admired. reg

Sonic reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Zanagodly:
You say these people if they are able to reallocate and be a perfect level 160 character based on current circumstances they will be in trouble inthe long run? I disagree, because they are already several steps ahead of myself on the possibility of things to change. The new CS formula i belive is sticking for the life of the game, SO Suvar will be perfectly adjusted for that change at 160, and Zanagan the Great wouldn't be adjusted till ooooh like level 200. Being very well trained in CM will never become a bad mistake by any profession, and after viewing Suvar's stats at the slave auction on ebay, he would want to take advantage of that and get more CM. Whoever owns Suvar at this time is gonna have a field day, developing his character to be the most powerful wizard in the game. Its a great ability to mold a level 160 wizard in the course of a brief period of time(although named Suvar).
I'm curious on how people feel about those of the "nine" that may of done a lot of multi accounting (including letting others pick/heal/etc on them) in order to further advance.

And also, I do believe these people should certainly receive items for compensation if they are willing to drop to 160, but not the reallocation. And of course the items would be attuned to the person, for them not to go off to sale for thousands of dollars, hundreds of millions of coins. I think I fear more those items given to friends, and "other souls" to use for their own benefit.

Mike

Zanagan

[This message has been edited by Zanagodly (edited 09-08-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Zanagodly (edited 09-08-2001).]

---

How many damn times are you going to mention Suvar?

This whole thread looks like sour grapes to me. Zanagan, you are furious that Suvar might have a chance to reallocate, and get rid of his lockpicking skills. Meanwhile, the poor Zanagan is stuck with the paltry picking/disarming ranks that he learned (so that he too could "abuse" game mechanics and learn when there were no creatures to fight). Why does Suvar get to reallocate, and I don't! Wah!

I'll hazard a guess that Zanagan was pretty pissed when the level freeze was announced, and he had already wasted training points while learning to be a locksmith.

One man's opinion

reg

quote:

---

Originally posted by LordKranar:
That's what I believe as well...

People claim Scintillion is the reason why Haste changed... folks let me tell you... Haste was meant to change way before Scintillion existed. Haste was meant to change before the Isle opened. Haste was meant to change years and years ago and the fact that someone used it like crazy was not what resulted in its change.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

---

I suspect that Haste was slated for change, but that Scintillion's abuse of it with a pet wizard did at least influence the powers that be.

Will you admit that Scintillion is responsible for the wasp nests that are instant death now? He would hit the nest repeatedly to cause wasps to swarm out, and then he would swing away for quick fame and experience. It was the power to gen your own critters, and he abused that, and haste at the same time. For anyone that doesn't know, if you attack a wasp nest now, there is a very high chance of instant death. reg

Yes I did train in pick/disarm to learn past level 138 etc and now all that training is useless to me. Suvar will be able to receive items and reallocation for his advancement of 100 so levels over the cap and end up a perfect level 160 wizard with no picking. Meanwhile I'm in a position where I was about to do the SAME thing as him, but I get screwed over. Why wouldn't I be allowed to reallocate as well?
reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Zanagodly:
Why shouldn't I be mad?

Yes I did train in pick/disarm to learn past level 138 etc and now all that training is useless to me. Suvar will be able to receive items and reallocation for his advancement of 100 so levels over the cap and end up a perfect level 160 wizard with no picking. Meanwhile I'm in a position where I was about to do the SAME thing as him, but I get screwed over. Why wouldn't I be allowed to reallocate as well?

---

You'll be able to treasure hunt and safely pick/pop boxes that Suvar won't be able to do on his own merits.

Personally, I think he'd be a fool to not have at least some locksmithing skills just so he is self-sufficient. The 71 ranks in picking/disarming that he currently has is just about what I would call the "right" amount for a wizard to have to handle the bulk of the boxes that exist today (when coupled with his 403/404 bonuses). reg

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zanagodly:
Why shouldn't I be mad?

Yes I did train in pick/disarm to learn past level 138 etc and now all that training is useless to me. Suvar will be able to receive items and reallocation for his advancement of 100 so levels over the cap and end up a perfect level 160 wizard with no picking. Meanwhile I'm in a position where I was about to do the SAME thing as him, but I get screwed over. Why wouldn't I be allowed to reallocate as well?

---

1. Because they had to draw the line somewhere. If they didn't, I could argue that my training plan was designed for age 200, so I need to reallocate as well.

2. You are 138, now, and were 135 at the time of the change (random guess here). You would still have 25 trains to adjust to any errors you may have made.

3. Suvar, and those like him, are being asked to drop approximately 100 levels (in some cases more) before they would be able to reallocate. Would you like a chance to reallocate if it also meant that you would be dropped to train 38 as part of the bargain?

4. I doubt any of those above the cap will accept the deal if they can avoid it. As many have stated, there is really no upside for those characters being asked to drop levels.

I may have been a little hard on you Zanagan, but as I read each of your posts, I saw a lot of jealousy and self pity creeping in.

[This message has been edited by DarkRanger (edited 09-10-2001).] reg

Sonic reg

No deal has actually been offered yet, and no one knows what, if any, deal will be offered.

You are all arguing about this person and that person reallocating or not, when there has been NO announcement regarding any deal. Remember also, just because there are nine people y'all know about, doesn't mean there isn't someone at level 159 who is just about to level again or 164 or whatever the last level is just under the FUTURE cap.

So if they're gonna make a deal, they'll have to discuss it with everyone who has even a slight chance of getting past that level by the time it's implemented.

To my knowledge, that hasn't happend yet. So you're all griping and moaning about a few speculations and absolutely no facts whatsoever.

Stuff was discussed at Simucon. Big whoop. I told Romulus at Simucon 2 years ago that I thought it would be great if one thing or another was done with Sorcery. I discussed stuff with Romulus folks! Oh my oh my! I guess that means Romulus is gonna be doing something since the almighty Roberta discussed it with him!

Gimme a break.

R
reg

abuse aka mistreatment, aka dishonor.

They dishonored the entegrity of the game mechanics by utilizing it to attain goals not intended by the creators .

The mistreated the game mechanics, didn't respect the mechanics. whatever. abuse abuse abuse.

bleh!

quote:

---

Again, I disagree. You say "they didn't intend for those high levels to be attained". I say they did.

---

If you wish to disagree with me thats your choice, but let me ask you this...

If the games creators intended all along , from the very beginning for people to be level 250 right now, if all this was planned-- why oh why would they institute the age cap? and drop everyone down to 160?

If this was all planned and the way it was intended, no need for an age cap then.

Simple as that.

If tommorrow every character was 250, oh wait, thats perfectly fine, we all intended for that to happen...

Do you really beleive that?

'lood
"I am the walrus"
reg

quote:

---

Originally posted by kelood:
If you wish to disagree with me thats your choice, but let me ask you this...

If the games creators intended all along , from the very beginning for people to be level 250 right now, if all this was planned-- why oh why would they institute the age cap? and drop everyone down to 160?

If this was all planned and the way it was intended, no need for an age cap then.

Simple as that.

If tommorrow every character was 250, oh wait, thats perfectly fine, we all intended for that to happen...

Do you really beleive that?

'lood
"I am the walrus"

---

This is so easy - I really can't believe you even asked it.

They changed their mind. Hence, last year "We are allowing expansion for beyond level 300". Now, "we want an age cap".

Done.

"I'll take a Big Mac extra value meal - no, wait, on second thought - I'll just have a cheeseburger and a diet Coke".

(As a side note - several of the new additions to staff over the course of the past year has a lot to do with this change in the first place. My opinion.)

[This message has been edited by Magister (edited 09-10-2001).] reg

You can't change your mind on the way the game was intended from the start.

What this does tell you is the how you interpreted "expanding to 300+ levels" is off. Expansion, aka adding things not intended in the first place.

not done.

'lood reg

HE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Nothing... 0 percent, absolutely jack squat. Not a thing... please understand the previous. The reasons haste changed were clear ever since Banthis made the first few posts about the topic which was WAY before Scintillion existed, he said only one thing was preventing the change to Haste, and it was a MAJOR redesign of several core systems. Infact he detailed the reasons why Haste II ever gave a 0 second RT and how those reasons are no longer nessecary due to the improvement of technology over the years. Scintillion didn't even prompt GMs to say "Okay, look at this guy, we now need to do something and get it done soon."

Scintillion stopped haste hunting about 8-9 months before it got changed, he had 0 effect on it. Same with wasp nests, they too were slated to be changed way before Scintillion hunted them and they also were changed much after he did hunt them. To say that Scintillion haste hunted wasp nests and that caused them to be changed is a fallacy because there have been various official posts stating these changes. One did not lead to the other, there isn't even much of a coincidence. Want to believe I'm wrong... suit yourself, I however think it's fallacious to believe that because one guy went wild with it that the GMs decided to change it based on very little info. I'd rather base my opinion on the available and official statements on haste then on one incident.

I still think Kelood that you're wrong to state on one hand mechanics abuse is defined by what Simu feels is exploiting a mechanic, but on the other hand not provide any evidence that lockpicking and healing for the purpose of gaining experience is such abuse. Sure as hell would surprise me if I heard any statement by Simu that suggested it was.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 09-10-2001).] reg

I don't know if I really understand what you're saying here, not that I'm saying you don't have a point, but just that it's getting a little more confusing with every post.

The games intentions have changed MANY MANY times over the course of 13 years. If from the start they never intended people becomming 250 I would just argue they could have put the age cap at 250 from the beginning.

- Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 09-10-2001).] reg

quote:

---

Originally posted by kelood:
You didn't answer my question at all.

You can't change your mind on the way the game was intended from the start.

What this does tell you is the how you interpreted "expanding to 300+ levels" is off. Expansion, aka adding things not intended in the first place.

not done.

'lood

---

I did answer your question:

quote:

---

Originally posted by kelood:
If the games creators intended all along , from the very beginning for people to be level 250 right now, if all this was planned-- why oh why would they institute the age cap?

---

I said they changed their mind.

Honestly, I really have no idea what point you are trying to make with all the double talk and mixing up of time frames.

You say original intent - then tack in a NEW policy change that is a couple months old. Are you trying to say now that a specific 160 level cap was the original intent way back when 10 years ago? or what? Why wasn't the ORIGINAL intent 10 years ago to cap it at level 159? or 161?

We'll just have to disagree.

A level cap was NOT the original plan for the game - either that, or Simu just decided to wait 10 years to put one in (which isn't necessarily beyond the realm of possibility).

I strongly and earnestly disagree with this portion of your statement:
You can't change your mind on the way the game was intended from the start.

I could plan to build a space ship out of cardboard boxes right now - but, I might change my mind later on to make it out of metal.

They changed their mind. reg

quote:

---

I still think Kelood that you're wrong to state on one hand mechanics abuse is defined by what Simu feels is exploiting a mechanic, but on the other hand not provide any evidence that lockpicking and healing for the purpose of gaining experience is such abuse. Sure as hell would surprise me if I heard any statement by Simu that suggested it was.

---

I though i just got done explaining this little mix up a few posts back. I am not saying lockpicking is mechanics abuse. What i have been saying from the beginning, and what i have been trying to reinforce through varying methods is that being 100 levels above the huntable creature level is going beyond the bounds of the game.

If you go back to my first or second post i believe i said that explicitly.

The billion posts since has been to clarify what exactly abuse is (as some people are still stuck on that word for some reason), and to show how simu has dealt with mechanics abuse in the past (and not neccesarily banning people because of it).

Fine, if you want to say that scintillion had absolutely nothing to do with wasps AND haste, ill concede that, it matters not one bit.

About my "double talk". I'll clarify a bit.

If you intend on building a spaceship out of metal and all you can find is cardboard, you didn't intend to build a spaceship out of cardboard.

Theirs no mind change in prior intention.

No one intended people to be level 250 at this point. Maybe they recently implemented the ability to EVENTUALLY support levels 300+, but that is not around yet.

It seems obvious to me that simu deciding on an age cap states pretty clear that something is wrong with people being 250 levels.

Ill repeat that one again.

simu deciding on an age cap states clearly that something is wrong with the age of current characters

why else would you institute a cap?

'lood

reg

quote:

---

Originally posted by kelood:

simu deciding on an age cap states clearly that something is wrong with the age of current characters

why else would you institute a cap?

'lood

---

Tons of reasons could be conceived for an age cap (or for NOT having an age cap for that matter). Not all necessarily reflect an inherent problem in the current levels of characters.

Sample #1 - demonstating a problem with the current age:
Simutronics decided that financially its not in their best interest to dedicate resources to 0.1% of their customer base.

Sample #2 - demonstrating no problem inherently with the current age:
Newbie Simutronics staff member gets hired. "I hate all old people" - and campaigns to get an age cap put in place.

reg

reg

quote:

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Originally posted by kelood:
Yes, and the mean newbie fairy could have put a spell on all the employees...

---

Actually, in my opinion, some of the recent staff changes over the past year or so had more to do with the sudden change of heart regarding an age cap than anything else.

Using flawed logic of "we don't want to dedicate resources to a small segment of the population", "the game mechanics break down at the older age groups", etc., etc. can be very convincing to others - all the while concealing a self-serving agenda for themselves personally. Again, my opinion.

And wholly irrelevant. Whats done is done. The age cap is in place (albeit I strongly oppose it), and just a matter now of what to do with it. reg

Sonic reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Alfador:
I'd really like to see ONE decent dev GM dedicate their time to constantly putting in place higher level hunting grounds. If it takes this GM 8 month or a year, that is still a MUCH higher rate than we saw from rift to EN2. I don't think 1 GM would really hurt the events or merchants that much, but then again what do I know?

Sonic

---

That GM's name is GM Warden and he's certainly been dedicated for the last three years.

--A.
reg

Mike reg

Sonic reg

I've not been happy with the fact that I still find myself asking the same question:

Why did we change anything? reg

-John

------------------
AIM: High Lord 42o
EMail: djdisapate@djdisapate.com
---------------------
www.djdisapate.com
www.eternalbeats.net
www.eraver.net
---------------------
(Ever wonder if rubber chickens think people are funny?) reg

quote:

---

Originally posted by LordKranar:
Look, I know Scintillion felt real good believing he changed haste, but the truth remains...

Same with wasp nests, they too were slated to be changed way before Scintillion hunted them and they also were changed much after he did hunt them. To say that Scintillion haste hunted wasp nests and that caused them to be changed is a fallacy because there have been various official posts stating these changes. - Lord Kranar, human Archwizard

[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 09-10-2001).]

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Scintillion was still hunting wasps when the change was made. There was no official comment on the wasp nest change, other than comments about certain items that used the reticulated glaes orbs for charging. I know he was hunting them at the time, because I became aware of the change when he came to the official boards pissing and moaning.
reg

Why is there a need for new highest level hunting areas? Characters over level 90 don't even account for more than 5% of the population in Gemstone. With characters ranging up from 150-250, how do you design an area to fit them? It'd be a waste of GM time to devote more areas for highest level characters when EN2 is already coming out with higher level areas. reg

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~Jeanine reg

If you are level 15 there are a ton of things you can hunt to get exp. I'd venture as far as saying over 50 different monsters. At 160 what can you hunt? NOTHING.

I'm not asking for multiple high end grounds be implemented. I'm asking for ONE after another. That is HARDLY a selfish request considering the people that care about hunting and play this game a lot are the ones at the top, not the level 20 guy who rarely hunts and averages an hour in game a week.

Sonic reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Zanagodly:
Thats what I mean, people at 143 now, will get to 160 very quickly or at least potentially can

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Ok, I'll be generous and say there are maybe 100 people over level 90. There are 1000 people almost at any given (prime) time, that's 10% of the population. And I'm not even adding accounts that aren't online.

There are 9 people over the cap right now. You want a GM to spend months room painting, coding, creating creatures, writing descriptions for a few people who are ranged from anywhere from 150 to 250.

Lemme ask you, HOW WOULD YOU CREATE AN AREA LIKE THAT?

Another question. Would you spend months creating an area that those 9 people are going to speed through within the next 2 months or create an lower hunting area that the major populace can also hunt?

Bianca reg

1. Zanagan
2. Zabarieth
3. Haelmistrum
4. Tarakan
5. Suvar
6. Shaukal
7. Bonehitter
8. Kadesha
9. Xeldrake
10. Krovax
11. Callinar
12. Craniol
13. Lourraine
14. Karmah
15. Paragonimus
16. Mirken
17. Sadnama
18. Tsalin
19. Hypherdol
20. Otterex
21. Ankroson
22. Enchandri
23. Slovigg
24. Valdarrow
25. Primum
26. Randeis
27. Xrothgar
28. Artistanis
29. Hogberth
30. Zentix
31. Connour
32. Beryl
33. Bhambi
34. Vrell
35. Gulath
36. Jamousii
37. Megaladon
38. Faegil
39. Heartpierced
40. Neimanz
41. Kyera
42. Semtexx
43. Drandar
44. Dizzycat
45. Vlatimire
46. Khyle
47. Lousinda
48. Mendi
49. Bronwynn
50. Lissa
51. Whyssper
52. Psyryn
53. Sihaya
54. Tenderhand
55. Nevets
56. Phillipa
57. Sraven
58. Tilone
59. Jypsie
60. Satrn
61. Elanella
62. Felnarn
63. Drizzstd
64. Malok
65. Jadall
66. Angellisa
67. Skyfawn
68. Giantsheild

That's all I can get offhand. Mind you these are people that are 128 and over. I'd venture to say that there are 200+ over 90. These 68 people have gotten past the rift in a reasonable sense.

Sonic reg

I was talking about hunting areas for level 150 and above, that's the impression I got when you said -highest- hunting areas. You still haven't answered my questions that I previously asked. reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Alfador:
First off all you are very wrong with your numbers. Most of the "9" wouldn't even be able to hunt an immediate new ground. However to humor you, I will make a list of those people currently as old or older than the oldest monster in the game. In no particular order:

1. Zanagan
2. Zabarieth
3. Haelmistrum
4. Tarakan
5. Suvar
6. Shaukal
7. Bonehitter
8. Kadesha
9. Xeldrake
10. Krovax
11. Callinar
12. Craniol
13. Lourraine
14. Karmah
15. Paragonimus
16. Mirken
17. Sadnama
18. Tsalin
19. Hypherdol
20. Otterex
21. Ankroson
22. Enchandri
23. Slovigg
24. Valdarrow
25. Primum
26. Randeis
27. Xrothgar
28. Artistanis
29. Hogberth
30. Zentix
31. Connour
32. Beryl
33. Bhambi
34. Vrell
35. Gulath
36. Jamousii
37. Megaladon
38. Faegil
39. Heartpierced
40. Neimanz
41. Kyera
42. Semtexx
43. Drandar
44. Dizzycat
45. Vlatimire
46. Khyle
47. Lousinda
48. Mendi
49. Bronwynn
50. Lissa
51. Whyssper
52. Psyryn
53. Sihaya
54. Tenderhand
55. Nevets
56. Phillipa
57. Sraven
58. Tilone
59. Jypsie
60. Satrn
61. Elanella
62. Felnarn
63. Drizzstd
64. Malok
65. Jadall
66. Angellisa
67. Skyfawn
68. Giantsheild

That's all I can get offhand. Mind you these are people that are 128 and over. I'd venture to say that there are 200+ over 90. These 68 people have gotten past the rift in a reasonable sense.

Sonic

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Don't forget about me.

Omnirus.

I'm just not on the fame lists
reg

How would I build these areas? I don't know, I'd ask players for ideas on themes and pick a good one. I'd delegate some of the brainstorming without a doubt, however, I'd be the final judge and would create everything. There are plenty of people that play GS that are bright enough to come up with a good looking area map and paint it by themselves. I'd give them a chance, then do some editting to give it a twist. Then I'd generate some characters from all professions that are of like age, both optimized and fairly bootleg, and see how well they do against a general monster to determine a good base AS/DS/TD/CS. Then I'd try out different things and see how challenging or unfair they made the fights. I'd have people fight 5 of them at once and I'd have 5 character fight once at once. It's not rocket science designing a new area, it's number tweaking.

Sonic reg

Yeah, EN was a marketing scheme but they're not advertising until EN2 comes out which is when the lower leveled areas will come. I really feel your plight, Zanagan but I still don't think higher leveled areas should come out until there is some sort of balance in place. The training of characters in high levels are so vastly different, it's hard to create anything that'll be challenging for one group and not easy as hell for another. All I can say is, it's being worked on and after that, they'd release higher level areas. Growing pains is designed to put some balance back into the game, and the age cap was also a start (Age cap!? Boo! Hiss!). And I know how you guys feel about the age cap.

I would like say it's the player's fault for trying to use a way around the exp system to level when majority of the people are stuck after the last hunting area, but they're really not to blame. IMO, I think some sort of limited allocation should be available for those who've reached the cap to fix the wrongs they've done.

Bianca
reg

Sonic reg

That would be stupid.

What the age cap allows is for simu to make 30 different hunting areas for ALL ages, put a little variety into things.

More hunting areas for a large portion of the population is alot better than one area for a small portion. Argue the numbers all you want, but post rift agers still make up less of the pupulation than younger characters.

If they put 100% of their resources into level creation, they still would barely, if at all, be able to keep up with the latest batch of high level characters.

What they are trying to do, and i agree with, is start to contain all the characters to a certain boundary, call that the "entire game"-- and work to make the entire game better and more diverse. When they feel satisfied with the entire game, they make the entire game bigger, but not too big as to get into the trouble they were in before.

And if that upsets you, start a new character.

Try one of those 30 hunting areas you missed the first time around .

'lood
"I am the walrus." reg

Sonic reg

Those in group #1, want to try as many different professions/races/combinations, and unique training regimens - hunt and go to all of the different areas that exist, etc., etc. If these persons stay around for any length of time, they will usually roll up several characters over the years (with some extreme cases that seem like they are perpetually young because they keep re-rolling).

Those in group #2, are persons that primarily focus most (or all) of their efforts on 1 main profession/aspect/character (and in some extreme cases, they have elected to focus on ONE character exclusively no matter what).

Its pretty clear from this discussion to see who falls into which group.

Those that fall into group #1, WANT to experience the "other 30 younger hunting areas". I can understand that - and thats their choice.

However, personally, I have NO desire to experience the "other 30 younger hunting areas" - and hence I fall into the group #2 category.

Rather than looking at things the way that the group #1 persons do, with a "variety is the spice of life" perspective.

I look at it more as "why in the world would I want to repeat First Grade over and over and over?"
Example "A": The FIRST trip I ever made to Icemule in my life was when I was en route to hunt the Rift and I HAD to pass through Icemule to get there. (If a merchant/Jugg was in Icemule, I skipped it.)
Example "B": I haven't been and won't go to Elven Nations unless I have a specific reason to accomplish some goal there, that can't be accomplished where I currently am located.

Most of the persons in group #1 wouldn't miss the opportunies to see the new & exciting places, things, and experiences of the new areas that get opened up.

A group #2 person most likely won't go unless they have good reason to. Just because its new - doesn't mean they want to see it.

To each their own.

But - there should be at least 1 person actively working on expanding the game for those persons that fall into group #2.

*******************************************
And in regard to "How to Balance" things for the older hunting areas.....

The alleged breakdown of game mechanics when comparing professions in the older age brakcets is best solved by creating hunting areas specifically designed for each of the types of characters [Casters, Semis, Squares].

Arch A: Casters
Arch B: Semis
Arch C: Squares

Those "arches" would lead to hunting areas specifically designed for those types of persons. The other professions can hunt in the other arches - but they would expect to have greater difficulty.

This would allow those persons that are married, or want to hunt with friends, etc. to be able to do so.

To keep the effort involved in creating these upper hunting areas to a minimum - you can have it be the exact same rooms, heck, even the exact same critters - just with different abilities (AS, CS, etc.) dependant on which Arch in which it was located.

[This message has been edited by Magister (edited 09-15-2001).] reg

Sonic reg

Not of course, they tell me everything, but I haven't heard of a hard cap at all.

Khaladon

PS. This is Khaladon opinion (tm) only. Its correct only so far as I know. reg

quote:

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The games creators revamped the game so levels could be attained BEYOND level 300. Currently, no one is BEYOND level 300. I only mentioned the revamping to demonstrate that the creator's were making it so persons would be able to keep on going.

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The change made to the game to allow past level 300 was made for one reason only. That was to make sure that if one of the fast levellers who was near 300 actually trained, it didn't break the game.
Did you ever read about what would have happened if anyone trained for 300? It not only would have messed up that character, but every single character in the entire game because the formula at level 300 broke.

That was because the original designers most likely figured no one would get there so it wouldn't even be an issue. So the GM's made a fix when someone was getting close and threatening to destroy the entire game just from gaining that level.

I'm pretty damn certain they were also looking into a level cap at the same time cause they don't make those kinda decisions overnight. Takes them a long time to do it. But they had to put in the fix first just in case.

Snook reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Magister:
[B
And in regard to "How to Balance" things for the older hunting areas.....

The alleged breakdown of game mechanics when comparing professions in the older age brakcets is best solved by creating hunting areas specifically designed for each of the types of characters [Casters, Semis, Squares].

Arch A: Casters
Arch B: Semis
Arch C: Squares

Those "arches" would lead to hunting areas specifically designed for those types of persons. The other professions can hunt in the other arches - but they would expect to have greater difficulty.

This would allow those persons that are married, or want to hunt with friends, etc. to be able to do so.

To keep the effort involved in creating these upper hunting areas to a minimum - you can have it be the exact same rooms, heck, even the exact same critters - just with different abilities (AS, CS, etc.) dependant on which Arch in which it was located.
[/B]

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You just explained the difference between the average MUD and Gemstone. The average MUD might do what you suggested since their main thing isn't creating a virtual RP world but making a game for people to hack and slash their way through.

Gemstone is different. That's why it can take a long time to make new areas. They aren't gonna just design a couple new critters and put them in a few thrown together rooms. They make the critters and area fit the rest of the world.

Having arches like you suggested makes no sense at all as far as being realistic in the Gemstone world. They would obviously just be hunting areas put there so people could advance. That's not the kinda game GS is.

Snook reg

quote:

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Originally posted by Magister:
Actually, in my opinion, some of the recent staff changes over the past year or so had more to do with the sudden change of heart regarding an age cap than anything else.

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I don't like posting this much, but I've been seeing all this stuff that doesn't match how things have actually been.

You said this two or three times. But yer leaving out all kindsa stuff that was said in the past. Going back to Aephir and Banthis there was talk about some of the GM's thinking a level cap was a good idea and needed. If it woulda been done back then it woulda avoided a lot of the problems we have no since no one woulda been over the cap.

The other thing is, it's kinda dumb to say new staff is the reason for a big change like this. They're newbie GM's, they don't set policy. GM's might tell the company what they think is important and stuff, but they sure as hell aren't making the decisions. That stuff comes from the top down, not the GM's on the bottom rung of the ladder.

Snook reg

I am not to far from the age cap right now. But I keep thinking. What the hell am I going to do when I beat the game?

Oh crap! There is end now. Why bother with a game that you know you can beat? Bad business to put a point where you have beaten a game.

90% of the people come for the hack and slash. Don't try and say they don't. Without the people that hunt. Without the hack and slashers. This game would not exist like it is now.

So the age cap is absolutely stupid from a business point of veiw. The 9 didn't really make that big of a difference. Now you have a game that has limits unlike other games.

So I don't like the age cap. I am trying now to slow my learning down since there is no future for me after the cap.

When breakage comes, I will shut my accounts off until it leaves. Just not a bright future for GS in my mind.

edge reg

Here goes:

quote:

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Originally posted by Snooky:
The change made to the game to allow past level 300 was made for one reason only. That was to make sure that if one of the fast levellers who was near 300 actually trained, it didn't break the game.

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Actually, the original post discussing the issue said that "this fix does SEVERAL things" - one of which was the fix that you mentioned. I've got the original post somewhere - I'll see if I can dig it up.

quote:

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Originally posted by Snooky:
You just explained the difference between the average MUD and Gemstone. The average MUD might do what you suggested since their main thing isn't creating a virtual RP world but making a game for people to hack and slash their way through.Gemstone is different. That's why it can take a long time to make new areas. They aren't gonna just design a couple new critters and put them in a few thrown together rooms. They make the critters and area fit the rest of the world.Having arches like you suggested makes no sense at all as far as being realistic in the Gemstone world. They would obviously just be hunting areas put there so people could advance. That's not the kinda game GS is.

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I agree. I think an entire team of 20 staff members should be dedicated to creating a post level 160 environment.

However, the big complaint was that it was for such a small percentage of the customer base and that allocating so much effort was not an effective use of their resources.

Its taken 10 years for the AVERAGE person in the game to be level 30 or so. Assuming the same rate of progression - in another 50 years, we can expect the average age of persons to warrant dedicating adequate resources to expand the game beyond level 160.

A crumb of 1 staff member working on expanding the game beats the heck out of none, which is the current situation.

quote:

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Originally posted by Snooky:
it's kinda dumb to say new staff is the reason for a big change like this. They're newbie GM's, they don't set policy. GM's might tell the company what they think is important and stuff, but they sure as hell aren't making the decisions. That stuff comes from the top down, not the GM's on the bottom rung of the ladder.

Snook

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There is no advantage for me to beat on the hornet's nest more than I have in regard to this issue. Repercussions are always a possibility - and given that any discussion here is not going to have any significant impact regarding the matter, the risks of payback for non-main stream opinions such as this are too great.

That being said, I think I can make a generalization that is applicable to most corporate environments:
Persons lower in the food chain are able to influence those in the upper bracket. The upper bracket persons buy into the concepts pitched by these newer persons. Then, you get a form of solidarity across the entire front that "we all wanted to do such-and-such".

That is all that I am willing currently to say on this issue.

[This message has been edited by Magister (edited 09-17-2001).] reg

Sonic reg