What do you think?

03:45 PMAthanastus says, "Hello Edgeleaf, I'm Gamehost Athanastus and I am here to answer your request for Assistance. "
>grin athan
You grin at Athanastus.
>'hiya
You say, "hiya"
>l
[Shimmarglin Inn, Front Desk]
A contoured counter of polished black oak curves along one side of the room, its high sheen reflecting light from a pair of glowing crystalline orbs which flank it. Behind the counter, a wall-mounted shelf contains a complex of honeycombed cubicles. A shallow niche on one wall contains the miniature carving of a leafless tree, the ends of its gnarled branches tipped with tiny luminous nodules. You also see the Edgeleaf disk and the front desk.
Also in the room: GameHost Athanastus, High Lady Summir
Obvious exits: north, east.
>
Athanastus grins.
>
Athanastus nods to you in greeting.
>j summ
You are already a member of Summir's group.
>'Summir and I have a problem
You say, "Summir and I have a problem"
>
Athanastus rubs his chin thoughtfully.
>
Athanastus says, "hmm"
>'Zurrain stole her shield
You say, "Zurrain stole her shield"
>
Athanastus asks, "he did?"
>
Athanastus asks, "how?"
>'Whatley said that its consent to PvP
You say, "Whatley said that its consent to PvP"
>
* Zhanhia just bit the dust!
>
Summir says, "it should be in the records"
>
Athanastus asks, "and why isn't Summir assisting?"
>
* Macryte just bit the dust!
>'Well, its both our shield
You say, "Well, its both our shield"
>'She was using it
You say, "She was using it"
>
Athanastus rubs his chin thoughtfully.
>'I enchanted
You say, "I enchanted"
>'it for her to use
You say, "it for her to use"
>'So no way possible for us to kill Zurrain in a PvP situation
You say, "So no way possible for us to kill Zurrain in a PvP situation"
>
* Ralhn just bit the dust!
>'Unless we use mass destruction spells
You say, "Unless we use mass destruction spells"
>'Which hurt everyone around us
You say, "Which hurt everyone around us"
>
Summir grins.
>"So we would like to speak with A GM
You say, "So we would like to speak with A GM"
>
Athanastus asks, "how did he steal her shield?"
>
* Talondria just bit the dust!
>
Summir sighs.
>'She got feared
You say, "She got feared"
>'in the rift
You say, "in the rift"
>
Summir says, "it's a moral thing"
>
* Shanniera just bit the dust!
>'he said he would help her get it back
You say, "he said he would help her get it back"
>
Summir says, "he came to help find it"
>'he picked it up and took off
You say, "he picked it up and took off"
>
Athanastus asks, "and what makes you think that killing him will get your shield back?"
>
Summir says, "found it and walked off with it"
>
Summir says, "cause there's no other way"
>'We can kill him till he returns it
You say, "We can kill him till he returns it"
>
Summir says, "he won't return it"
>
Athanastus says, "That is against policy"
>peer ath
You peer quizzically at Athanastus.
>
Summir says, "it's theft"
>
Athanastus says, "You are heading towards dangerous ground there"
>'David Whatley said it wasn't
You say, "David Whatley said it wasn't"
>
Summir says, "which is consented PvP"
>
* Teodore is off to a rough start! He just bit the dust!
'you going to say he doesn't know what he is talking about?
>You ask, "you going to say he doesn't know what he is talking about?"
>peer ath
You peer quizzically at Athanastus.
>
Athanastus says, "So you kill him once in a pvp situation"
>'Nope, havn't killed him yet
You say, "Nope, havn't killed him yet"
>
Athanastus asks, "when did david whatley say that it was ok for you to kill someone repeatedly?"
>'he said, its consent to PvP when stolen from
You say, "he said, its consent to PvP when stolen from"
>'Which means you can kill him till you are compensated or the item is returned
You say, "Which means you can kill him till you are compensated or the item is returned"
>
Athanastus asks, "he said that exactly?"
>'He said it's consent to PvP
You say, "He said it's consent to PvP"
>'He said. Stealing is consent to PvP
You say, "He said. Stealing is consent to PvP"
>
Athanastus asks, "but he did not say the second part?"
>'Not once, not 100 times
You say, "Not once, not 100 times"
>
A slender elven woman in a grey uniform wanders in and begins to appraise the various fixtures in the room. With quick, deft motions, she dusts the wooden counter and tree statuette with a feathered brush, removing any noisome particles.
>
Summir says, "he didn't specify"
>'So we ask for the shield back. He refuses we kill him
You say, "So we ask for the shield back. He refuses we kill him"
>'Simple
You say, "Simple"
>
Athanastus asks, "Did you see him pick up the shield?"
>
Summir chuckles.
>'He admitted he did it ingame
You say, "He admitted he did it ingame"
>'This has been already talked about
You say, "This has been already talked about"
>'We would like to talk to a GM about this
You say, "We would like to talk to a GM about this"
>
Summir says, "so did whatley say he has it, or had it"
>l
[Shimmarglin Inn, Front Desk]
A contoured counter of polished black oak curves along one side of the room, its high sheen reflecting light from a pair of glowing crystalline orbs which flank it. Behind the counter, a wall-mounted shelf contains a complex of honeycombed cubicles. A shallow niche on one wall contains the miniature carving of a leafless tree, the ends of its gnarled branches tipped with tiny luminous nodules. You also see the Edgeleaf disk and the front desk.
Also in the room: GameHost Athanastus, High Lady Summir
Obvious exits: north, east.
>
Athanastus asks, "and David Whately said, "you can kill him repeatedly until he gives back the shield'?"
>
* Delthore just bit the dust!
>'Can you refer us?
You ask, "Can you refer us?"
>
Athanastus nods.
>
Summir says, "thank you"
>
Athanastus says, "I just need to finish gathering some information"
>nod atha
You nod to Athanastus.
>
Athanastus says, "and I'll set you right up"
>
Athanastus smiles.
>
Athanastus asks, "and David Whately said, "you can kill him repeatedly until he gives back the shield'?"
>
Summir says, "we've been over and over this"
>
Summir says, "it should be logged alreay"
>'David Whatley said its consent to PvP
You say, "David Whatley said its consent to PvP"
>
Athanastus asks, "who did you talk with last?"
>
Summir says, "we just want to know what to do about open spells"
>
Summir asks, "who was it edge?"
>'I dont remember
You say, "I dont remember"
>'We taled to several over this
You say, "We taled to several over this"
>
Summir says, "me either, i was so mad"
>
Summir chuckles.
>
* Murp just bit the dust!
>
Summir says, "i just don't understand why they can't just take it back from him"
>
Summir says, "my registered property"
>
Summir says, "in his possession"
>
Athanastus asks, "When was the original situation? when did you lose your shield? what day?"
>
Summir groans.
>
Summir says, "was over a month ago"
>
Athanastus says, "I understand your frustration"
>
Summir says, "don't know exactly"
>
Athanastus says, "but let me explain something"
>
Summir says, "i've heard it all"
>
Athanastus says, "if you said that you talked about this before"
>
Athanastus says, "with someone"
>
* Aprilsoft just bit the dust!
>
Summir nods to Athanastus.
>
Athanastus says, "the more information that I gather now"
>
Summir says, "not about the open spells"
>
Athanastus says, "the better it is for the refer"
>
Athanastus says, "hang on"
>
* Laurencia just bit the dust!
>
Fletchus just arrived.
Summir says, "why do we waste our time? they aren't going to help us"
>
Summir sighs.
>
Summir sits down.
>
Fletchus moves to the front desk to get his key from the proprietor. With a yawn, Fletchus wanders off to his room.
>
The muffled sound of rising laughter echoes from the eastern archway.
>
Athanastus says, "I am sorry that you feel that way Summir"
>
* Crystallena is off to a rough start! She just bit the dust!
>
Summir says, "i feel that way for a reason, sorry to say"
>
Athanastus asks, "when did you speak with David whately then?"
>whisper summi lets just get a referel
You whisper quietly to Summir.
>

[Entering rest mode...press any key to resume.]

[Leaving rest mode.]

Summir says, "they haven't helped us so far"
>'He posts on unofficial boards
You say, "He posts on unofficial boards"
>
A white glow rushes away from Summir.
>'He proved it was him with a digital camera and changin his website
You say, "He proved it was him with a digital camera and changin his website"
>

[Entering rest mode...press any key to resume.]

A golden aura fades from Summir.
>
Summir seems slightly different.
>
Summir seems hesitant, looking unsure of herself.
>
The wall of force disappears from around Summir.
>
Summir says, "the reason he posted is because i was frustrated with customer service"
>
* Vendella just bit the dust!
>
Summir says, "he stated that it wasn't..that they knew who had it"
>
Summir says, "the person i put blame on, had it"
>

[Leaving rest mode.]

exp

Level: 125 Experience: 5750578
Next level at: 5800000 exp. Exp. until next lvl: 49422
Family Fame: 607392348 Character Fame: 607179361
Deeds: 21 Deaths this level: 0
Mana: 375/375 Max

Your mind is fresh and clear.
>l
[Shimmarglin Inn, Front Desk]
A contoured counter of polished black oak curves along one side of the room, its high sheen reflecting light from a pair of glowing crystalline orbs which flank it. Behind the counter, a wall-mounted shelf contains a complex of honeycombed cubicles. A shallow niche on one wall contains the miniature carving of a leafless tree, the ends of its gnarled branches tipped with tiny luminous nodules. You also see the Edgeleaf disk and the front desk.
Also in the room: GameHost Athanastus, High Lady Summir who is seated
Obvious exits: north, east.
>l atha
You see Athanastus Sang'froid the Dark Elf Cleric.
He appears to be in his 20's, has long, braided silver hair, green eyes, and dark skin.
He is in good shape.
He is holding a masterfully crafted silver chalice engraved with holy runes of intercession in his left hand.
He is wearing a linen pouch, a silver skullcap, a molded silver talisman, a pair of silver mesh gloves, a particolored black and white hip satchel edged with symbols of each and every Arkati, some ebony silk clerical vestments scrolled with ancient silver runes of power, some black leather sandals, a gold star, a gold star, and a shimmering glaesine orb.
>sign of thought
Your hypnotic gesture makes your mind receptive to the thoughts of others. You feel their distant, comforting presence.
>l
[Shimmarglin Inn, Front Desk]
A contoured counter of polished black oak curves along one side of the room, its high sheen reflecting light from a pair of glowing crystalline orbs which flank it. Behind the counter, a wall-mounted shelf contains a complex of honeycombed cubicles. A shallow niche on one wall contains the miniature carving of a leafless tree, the ends of its gnarled branches tipped with tiny luminous nodules. You also see the Edgeleaf disk and the front desk.
Also in the room: GameHost Athanastus, High Lady Summir who is seated
Obvious exits: north, east.
>exp

Level: 125 Experience: 5750578
Next level at: 5800000 exp. Exp. until next lvl: 49422
Family Fame: 607392348 Character Fame: 607179361
Deeds: 21 Deaths this level: 0
Mana: 374/375 Max

Your mind is fresh and clear.
>spell

Your spell lists:
Major Elemental...56
Minor Elemental...154
Wizard Circle.....50
Use SPELL ALL to view detailed list of spells.
>
You feel at full magical power again.
>
* Aprilsoft just bit the dust!
>
Athanastus asks, "so, you are saying that the owner of Simutronics told you on an unofficial site that it was ok to kill someone repeatedly until they returned your shield?"
>
Summir says, "i did not say that"
>'We are just asking for a referl
You say, "We are just asking for a referl"
>
Summir says, "he said stealing is consentual PvP"
>
Summir says, "period"
>'PvP consenting means more then one killing till its returned
You say, "PvP consenting means more then one killing till its returned"
>
Athanastus asks, "And who told you that definition edgeleaf?"
>
Lady Gailiana just arrived.
>'You got a different one?
You ask, "You got a different one?"
>
Lady Gailiana just went east.
>
Summir says, "if someone stoled a gem from you, you kill em till they return it yes? or at least in the past"
>
Summir says, "same difference"
>
* Zorganthrolimus just bit the dust!
>
Lady Gailiana just arrived.
>
Summir says, "it'd be different if he wasn't aware that it belonged to me"
>
Lady Gailiana just went north.
>
Athanastus says, "Usually consent to pvp means that you can kill them or attack them one time"
>
Summir says, "but he said he was going to help"
>'No it don't
You say, "No it don't"
>
Athanastus says, "in return for their offense"
>
* Hypherdol just bit the dust!
>
* Tirean was just incinerated!
>
* Tirean just bit the dust!
>
Athanastus says, "anything further could be construed as harrassment"
>
Fletchus just wandered in and handed his room key back to the innkeeper behind the desk.
>'Where did you get the definition from?
You ask, "Where did you get the definition from?"
>
Athanastus says, "From experience"
>
Summir asks, "shouldn't he be harassed?"
>''For a gem or coins
You say, "'For a gem or coins"
>'but not for a 10m item
You say, "but not for a 10m item"
>
Athanastus says, "for any reason"
>'ya right
You say, "ya right"
>
Fletchus just went north.
>
Athanastus says, "You cannot kill someone repeatedly, that is harrassment."
>
Athanastus says, "but tha's besides the point"
>
Athanastus says, "let me set up your referral"
>
Summir says, "a referal please, that's what we'd like to clarify"
>'Stealing is harassment
You say, "Stealing is harassment"
>chuckle
You chuckle.

edge reg

04:12 PMThe world grows blurry and indistinct. After a moment everything becomes clear again. Looking about, you see...
[Consultation Lounge]
The cozy surroundings of this simple conference room provide a much-welcomed respite from the chaos just outside its walls. You notice several plush chairs arranged casually around the room in a comfortable grouping.
Also in the room: GameMaster Krylan, High Lady Summir who is seated
Obvious exits: none.
>
Your disk arrives, following you dutifully.
>
Krylan waves.
>hold summ
You clasp Summir's hand tenderly.
>'Hiya
You say, "Hiya"
>hug summ
You hug Summir.
>
Summir hugs you.
>
Krylan says, "Alright...let me restate that last part."
>
You feel at full magical power again.
Summir nods to Krylan.
Krylan says, "I was observing your assist a few minutes ago."
>
Krylan says, "Inturn I've been in conference with a few other GM's and SGM's."
>nod kryl
You nod to Krylan.
>
The focused look leaves you.
>
Krylan says, "The take we have is the following..."
>
Krylan says, "NEW 5 7 and 5 8 state that items on the ground are at risk of permanent loss."
>
Krylan says, "This loss can be a result of both critters, janitor and other players."
>'But.... There is a catch here
You say, "But.... There is a catch here"
>'He came and said I will help you find your shield
You say, "He came and said I will help you find your shield"
>'In turn admitting it didn't belong to him
You say, "In turn admitting it didn't belong to him"
>
Krylan says, "Please let me finish."
>nod krylan
You nod to Krylan.
>
Summir says, "i think it comes to a matter of...did he steal it. which is a fine line."
>
Krylan says, "While theft may give you consent to attack the person reactively... not months later."
>
* Ethium just bit the dust!
>
Summir says, "he ran"
>'how so? When he keeps running and slamming nonstop
You say, "how so? When he keeps running and slamming nonstop"
>
Summir says, "then left for awhile"
>
Summir says, "i think he had spring break or something"
>'I reported him twice for slamming
You say, "I reported him twice for slamming"
>
Summir says, "cause he was gone for over a week"
>
Summir says, "he ran from the rift to EN"
>
Krylan says, "Well if he does slam to avoid you, we can see that as a reason to get involved."
>
Summir says, "i was dead when he took it, he went to the cavern before i was raise...fogged back and left"
>'he slammed when he is about to die
You say, "he slammed when he is about to die"
>
Krylan says, "However as the situation stands, and per David in that post...this is a situation between players."
>
Summir says, "so reactively was kind of out of the question for me"
>'So, only means I got to kill him is meteor storm
You say, "So, only means I got to kill him is meteor storm"
>'Which involves other players
You say, "Which involves other players"
>
Krylan says, "Please continue to REPORT should he attempt to use mechanics to avoid you in the future."
>
Krylan says, "Doing that would be a poor choice Edgeleaf."
>'Well, we want to sell the shield to someone that can retreive it
You say, "Well, we want to sell the shield to someone that can retreive it"
>
Krylan says, "Since first off it wasn't you who lost the shield, to he hasn't really stolen it...but likewise he hasn't done a very honorable thing either."
>'I enchanted the shield
You say, "I enchanted the shield"
>
Summir says, "i understand it's a moral issue more then anything"
>'Summir was using it
You say, "Summir was using it"
>
Summir says, "but the fact remains that the shield is my registered property, and he has it against my will"
>'Plus, she is going to be my wife
You say, "Plus, she is going to be my wife"
>'So it does involve me
You say, "So it does involve me"
>
Summir says, "so it's more of how he acquired the shield"
>
Krylan says, "So to summarize, our stand is we will not get involved in this unless mechanics are used to avoid you. Likewise we give no consent to attacking him since there was no theft in our eyes."
>
Summir chuckles.
>'So Whatley didn't know what he is talking about?
You ask, "So Whatley didn't know what he is talking about?"
>'He looked into this before he made that statement
You say, "He looked into this before he made that statement"
>
Summir says, "they don't see it as theft edge"
>
Summir says, "he picked it up"
>
Krylan says, "This is the consensus among the staff including SGM...if you wish to appeal please write to feedback."
>
Summir says, "they say that's ok"
>'I just can't see it their way. I need some drugs too
You say, "I just can't see it their way. I need some drugs too"
>'Why are you protecting a thief?
You ask, "Why are you protecting a thief?"
>
Summir says, "so in other words.."
>'you know this reflects on you as a person
Summir says, "if we attack him"
>
You say, "you know this reflects on you as a person"
>
Summir says, "we get in trouble"
>'In which case you are no better then he is
You say, "In which case you are no better then he is"
>
* Tsaabrak just bit the dust!
>
Summir says, "edge"
>'this is the morals you will teach your children to live by?
You ask, "this is the morals you will teach your children to live by?"
Krylan says, "Attacking him would be seen as violating policy...yes."
>
Summir asks, "in this instance?"
>
Krylan asks, "Anything else I can clarify for you?"
>'Ya, you sleep good at night?
You ask, "Ya, you sleep good at night?"
>'I bet you do
You say, "I bet you do"
>
Summir pokes you in the ribs.
>nod krylan
You nod to Krylan.
>
Summir says, "stop"
>
* Huxton just bit the dust!
>
Summir says, "i expected as much"
>'I met better criminals
You say, "I met better criminals"
>chuckle
You chuckle.
>
Krylan says, "If not, I'll return you then"
>
Krylan waves.

-------------------------------------------

Whatley got overuled! How does it feel knowing your own staff has no respect for you or your opinion?

edge reg

04:27 PMAll I'd like to say is that the GM you dealt with (without naming names) is a completely and total FOOL who has a bit of a problem with repeating questions four times when he's already been given a clear answer.

I'd like to think that the job of a GameHost would require the capability to read and use a little common sense. I'm sorry I'm so jaded, but it just frustrates me that when you try to get help with a certain situation, you're stuck with a buffoon who ends up wasting more time than it was worth.

In just about every assist I have been involved in, it took a good 15 minutes to hash out extremely simple and easy to follow basic information about the situation. I honestly have no idea what it takes to become a GameHost, or what credentials you must possess, but I think some of the people with those titles are falling through the cracks.

Just my opinion though. It's not Simu bashing, or anything of the sort. It's just customer service. When you go return something to a department store, how much do you enjoy it when it takes you ten minutes to explain that you just want to return a sweater for store credit, let alone the wait in line? It's the exact same situation. And it's how you lose customers.

((Edited for a spelling mistake.))

------------------
-Emtel

[This message has been edited by Emtel (edited 04-06-2002).] reg

04:28 PMMost of the time referrals are just a gamble. The outcome depends on which GM you get. reg

04:32 PMI think all this instance does is further reveal how you like to act like a smug, self absorbed brat and and enjoy twisting anything out of context to any degree if it will somehow assist you.

The Summner lost her shield due to fear.. couldnt a pure potion have helped eleviate that? Was what she hunting that far over her head that she shouldnt have ben there in the first place? Questions not dealt with.

Your first real hint that youw ere NOT going to get any kind of help, was when they said "An item on the ground is subject to permanent loss". Guess what? That means.. you lose it, your alone, your screwed.

IF the person who recovered it is honorable, they will return the shield. You made it VERY clear you had a snowballs chance in hell of beating this person in a fight, and yet stated over and over he was "running from you". Say what?? If hes able to mop the floor with you, then I SERIOUSLY doubt he's running from you, slamming, or anything else. After a REALLY unusual event, like getting an unexpected alter, prize, or just an exciting time in game, I will often log off and take a nap, watch t.v., read, go biking.. once the situation calms down.

And I doubt they are avoiding you.. rather just don't give a crap about how you think or feel about the situation and simply refuse to deal with you with anything more then a dismissive snort.

I luv how you threw in the "Shes going to be my wife" ROFLMAO... "I enchanted it for her.. its my shield", "its registered in my name, its my shield" .. heh.. the conversation sounded pretty weak.

------------------
Why Worry? Its Insurred
aint it? reg

04:44 PMI am sorry curse took the shield. Nobody the same age can ward a Vaesp 100% or even older by 10 trains.

As for stealing. He said he was going to help her find it. Then took it. By doing so he acknoledged the shield was not his and belonged to her. Any idiot knows that. Why can't you understand that?

Glad that you find stealing from people is funny. I am glad that you uphold those type of morals. You have showed what kind of character you have. One of a common criminal. Hope you pass those onto your children so they can be scum.

edge reg

04:52 PMI guess I just find it hard to feel bad for you , especially when your screaming about a moral high-ground, when you have partaken in rather dastardly activities in your own right.

Also.. his offering to help locate the shield is open to all kinds of interpretation, but it doesnt by extension prove it was his.. yours.. hers .. or anyone elses. It CERTAINLY doesnt mean im obligated by anything other then character or simple decency to return it.

Live by the sword, die by the sword. And for your own comfort, if it had been me, I would have returned the shield. However, I wouldnt expect anyone else to..

------------------
Why Worry? Its Insurred
aint it?

[This message has been edited by HappyGuyJr (edited 04-06-2002).] reg

05:10 PMJesus edge, that sucks. To know that someone stole an incredibly valuable piece of equipment from you and you can't get it back no matter what. And the whole staff run-around, too. I'm truly sorry. reg

05:14 PM

quote:
Originally posted by HappyGuyJr:
Live by the sword, die by the sword.

You can see from this case though that that system doesn't always work out. Edge can't *legally* kill Zurrain. reg

06:32 PMI don't know the particulars--but..if the shield was reported lost or stolen--and is registered, then if the janitor didn't get it and someone else has it...I believe that is grounds for the item to be returned. I've seen items recovered with less information. reg

06:59 PMThe Summner lost her shield due to fear.. couldnt a pure potion have helped eleviate that? Was what she hunting that far over her head that she shouldnt have ben there in the first place? Questions not dealt with.

First of all, Summir was 127 when she lost the shield hunting Vaespillion's which are 128. So over hunting, no. Should she not have had such a possession on her, probably not. Is this the issue here? No. The issue is someone saying..i'll help you find it, then taking off with it. In my book and it seems many others it's just wrong. I wouldn't even think twice about taking off with someone's equiptment. I'd go above and beyond trying to retrive things for others if they dropped it.

I luv how you threw in the "Shes going to be my wife" ROFLMAO... "I enchanted it for her.. its my shield", "its registered in my name, its my shield" .. heh.. the conversation sounded pretty weak.

The whole reason for that was so edge could be involved with trying to recover the shield with me. I could not kill Zurrainn on my own seeing as how he's 15 trains over me. And anyone who has a significant other in or out of game would want to get involved with a situation like this if it affected someone they care about. As for "happy's" comment on...i'd return it but not expect it to be returned.. all i have to say to that is i'm sorry you have little faith. Or maybe i have too much because i can't even imagine how people like Zurrainn think to do something so under handed. Like i've said before, i can replace an 8x shield many times over. But i made that shield a long time ago and it means something to me and actually it's gone beyond that now. It's the principle of it. I cannot see how anyone can say that the shield should not be returned to me. But apparently that's the decision and now i can't even retaliate. Very sad and very frustrating.

One other thing, don't bash edge for his belief's. If anything edge is consistant and stays with what he believe's and i highly respect that. Some will say one thing one day and totally contradict themselves later.

Thanks edge, i appreciate your efforts.

Summir
reg

07:03 PM Why'd you assist about this in the first place? So he took your shield, just kill him tons of times...even if it means you need to use area-effect spells. Just tell the people around there ahead of time what you're gonna do so they can leave once it happens. The only thing that happens when you assist about these sorts of things is trouble. The GMs will say drop it, blah blah, and anything else they can think of. Don't assist and just kill him tons of times. If he reports after you killed him THEN tell them your story, but not before hand...especially since you got GMs that don't know about the situation unlike those here on the boards.

As for not being able to kill him without the use of area-effect spells, just rapid fire dispell the idiot and then e-strike him...or better yet, have Summir bind him once dispelled as it's quicker since you don't have to release and reprep the spell which takes more time. Or, the suggestion you gave me to kill older people do be the "master dueler" or whatever you wanna call it, heh, go find a special item to use that requires absolutely no skill to use.

- Pudgee reg

08:01 PMKrylan needs to go back to coding and leave the Customer Service to someone who knows how to treat a customer. reg

09:28 PMI'll tell you what I think.

If I ever had any thoughts of becoming a GM, it's logs like this that convince me that I'd never do it in a million years.

-Prestius
reg

09:51 PMAwhile ago I gave someone a sword because they wanted to test their AS. They refused to give it back, so I killed them. A GM came down and hauled us both off. The situation was explained and the GM outright said that I could continue to kill his players as many times as I felt necessary, and so could people on my behalf as long as they let their intentions be known, until my sword was returned. My friend took advantage of this and really went to town murdering this guy over and over. GMs never got involved after that, I got my sword back, no problem.

Policy perhaps changed as this was at least 3 years ago, but in my case it worked well. I'm not recommending or suggesting anything, but telling a related story.

Sonic reg

01:43 AMThanks for all the support. I am consistant about my beliefs. Whatley is a wussy if he allows the staff to overturn him and say he is a liar about policy. I will tell him to his face myself in June if this is the way it's going to be. Like all the people that said they was going to kick my ass last June and pussed out.

This is not about a stolen shield. It's about the staffs feelings about me presonally. We all know stuff has returned items under lessor conditions. It's about me pissing off staffers over the years and being me. I am an honest merchant always have been.

When Angellisa stole my self mana bravery axe. The person that hacked her gave me her, her sons, chuckaars and shaukals PW. I assisted and told Andraste about it because I would not take any of them demonic. Wonder whos PW was Puppy? Shaukal was the only player with numbers in his PW too. Wow. I will not stoop to the level of her. I had the PWs for over a month before I did till Andraste. Nice of you to accuse Alex when he did NOT do it.

Stealing is not right. I will tell everyone what I think in June about this. Also I will take his GFs challenge since she dared me too. Ban me over this and it will get worse. I am F'ing pissed about staff taking their personal problems out on someone that is my friend(Summir).

Want a war? Bring it on you cowards!

I would say more but it would be pure flaming on the scum who allowed this.

Edge

reg

01:57 AMEdge don't take stuff to real life not only could you probably kick his ass way to easy after you were done you wouldn't feel any better cause you would probably be drunk at the time and forget about it lol. Anyways just keep fighting for whats right you know the shield is yours so you got truth on your side no worries very few wars were won in a month let alone a day.

Mano reg

03:30 AMHeh.

I am sorry. But there are somepeople who just should NEVER talk about their MORALS.

Because there is always going to be someone who can find fault with them.

First of all you have to understand that just because YOU have some moral value and your CHARACTER has the same values, doesn't mean that I and my CHARACTER have the same values.

I could play a total jerk warrior and be the nicest person outside of the game. Unfortunetly for some of the people posting I have learned of their real life morals and to hear them go on and on about how GOOD they are makes me sick.

When someone goes around and trash talk about you NONSTOP for a month and RUINS entire SECTIONS of the game for someone. That should be HARASSMENT, however the GM's won't do anything about that untill I hear or see it directly.

Anyway...Edge you know what I am talking about. And this time I have to say for the first time that the pot is calling the kettle black.

Buckwheet reg

03:32 AMIn hindsight I think Summir got what she deserved.

Buckwheet reg

04:38 AMCome on Buckwheat. Same goes for you. You told me something and it wasn't true bro. That night we had a talk. You said something that wasn't true to me. After I went out on a limb for yas with Summir after you told me that. Contact me over IMs please.

edge reg

05:10 AMI received a couple of whispers about this and just wanted to make it clear that this situation involves Summir. I'm Summerlyn, or Summer. SummIR and SummER are NOT the same person.

Plus, I'll probably NEVER get to 127 trainings... miracle I made it to 50!

SummEr reg

07:05 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Buckwheet:
In hindsight I think Summir got what she deserved.
Buckwheet

Because i said Zurrainn also plays Tsin/Skarletbegonias/Manodith and you have been turned away from makes me deserve it? You are the one who allowed him access for months therefore associated your character with him, not me. You rarely logged your character in and people are supposed to know when it's you and when it's him? when it was him for months? I never did anything to you besides state a fact. He played your character as well and everyone in the rift knew it, he didn't hide it. How is that deserving of someone taking my shield? I don't get it.

Summir reg

07:09 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Summerlyn:
I received a couple of whispers about this and just wanted to make it clear that this situation involves Summir. I'm Summerlyn, or Summer. SummIR and SummER are NOT the same person.
Plus, I'll probably NEVER get to 127 trainings... miracle I made it to 50!
SummEr

Sorry about the confusion Summer!

SummIr

reg

07:14 AMThe elderly clerk examines the skirt carefully and then scribbles an entry in the register.

"I have recorded the fact that you are in possession of a long white cotton skirt trimmed with pastel ribbons at this time, and have also recorded a detailed description of it. This will make it easier for you to describe an item to the town officials should it become lost, but is not proof of ownership," the clerk recites in a bored monotone.

"There is a nominal, 10 silver piece charge for this service. Please pay the debt clerk on your way out."

============================================

Someone care to explain to me the reason for registering an item again? reg

09:32 AMWhy do you register stuff? So that in case of a mechanical error (system crash, reboot, bug), the staff has a chance to identify items lost as a result of the error.

As far as the situation goes, I see both sides of the story and agree - and disagree - with each.

From a *roleplaying* perspective, the GMs shouldn't get involved at all, they shouldn't even be asked to get involved in any way shape or form.

Summir dropped her weapon, something that happens in the rift, is not news, and is commonly known and accepted as fact. She risked permanent loss of the weapon just by bringing it in there. This - is fact. Now we'll continue:

Zurain or whoever found out the weapon was missing, from an IN character perspective, and thought, as his character might do, that it would be great to own it for himself. So to keep suspicions at bay, he claimed interest in helping Summir get it back. This is a perfectly reasonable roleplay scenario. I'll continue:

Zurain did not steal the weapon. He took it either off the ground, or perhaps from a critter who picked it up and he killed the critter (I don't know much about rift critters, just tossing this out as one way he could've gotten it). He did know it was Summir's weapon, but he certainly didn't steal it from her. There is no "crime" here, no abuse of mechanics. What he did was unethical, but is still within the boundaries of acceptable roleplay.

HOWEVER (and this is the punchline, so lissen up)

Edge and Summir should certainly have been within their rights, from a RP perspective, to attempt to get the weapon back. No Edge, it wasn't yours. You enchanted it, but Summir registered it and possessed it. Enchanting it doesn't make it yours. Being engaged to Summir doesn't make it yours either. HOWEVER again...

From a RP perspective, what Zurrain did was despicable and unethical and not nice and Edge and Summir should have been within their rights to get it back. The mechanics of the game allow Edge to use a powerful dangerous spell against Zurrain, but that would cause risk of injury and death to anyone walking by.

MY solution would be this - if I was the GM:

1) I'd tell all players involved that in-character actions have in-character consequences, and that I will NOT get involved from an OOC perspective whatsoever. But I WILL get involved from an IC perspective if the situation calls for it.

2) If Edge manages to kill Zurrain, and Zurrain hands the weapon over and no one else gets hurt, end of story, everyone's happy.

3) If edge kills Zurrain and other people walking by get hurt, I would have some local official hear of it and have him arrested for murdering innocent whatevers...but he would NOT be punished for killing Zurrain.

Just because *in this case* Zurrain RPed it out, and RPed being mean and unethical, doesn't mean that the GMs should interfere. In fact it means just the opposite - that they should NOT interfere. But they should ALSO not interfere with Edge and Summir's attempt to get it back. That's where I agree with Edge's and Summir's side of the story.

Not because David Whatley said - he was referring to theft, and Zurrain didn't steal anything from anyone. In order to steal something from Summir, Summir would have had to HAVE that object. She didn't have it. Not in her possession, not in the bank, not on a locker character, not in the locker. She did not have the item, therefore taking it can't be stealing it. Deceptive mean and unethical? Yep, you bet. "Illegal" or "criminal" or against the rules? Nope.

R
reg

10:06 AMI don't believe anyone said that you can't kill someone who has stolen from you. The problem is that it's against policy to do it repeatedly until you get it back. The same goes with stealing the same person repeatedly. It's called harassment.

Also, you're trying to deal with this almost a month after the fact. Using a quote from David Whatley just seemed like a poor excuse, as though trying to say you have some sort of "pull" and an allowance to do what you please because "David said so". All David said was that "stealing is consented PvP" (actually it should read CvC because once it goes to PvP it's a personal conflict, not a character one and dealing with your personal problems through your characters is against policy as well, I believe).

And I'm sorry to say, being her fiance/husband/father/boyfriend/anything means nothing, unfortunately. You are not allowed to fight your woman's fights or problems. That was her baby to bag, not you, no matter how much you felt you needed to be involved. If you kill this guy, he has the right to report because he stole from Summir not you

What this guy did to you was wrong and is somewhat a traitor to the community for helping others retreieve items back from critters, especially when saying that's what he's going to do. However, it's not policy to give an item back, even if registered. He found it, he has the right to take it.

I have a however too!

I remember a thread here not too long ago of someone "finding" a weapon that someone lost and a GM was involved, took the weapon from the guy and gave it back to the owner. That should never have been done because now we'll expect for that service to be done again for others in the same situation, such as this one.

It's a shame you can't get it back with the GM's help. It really is. You should have done what Pudgee suggested and just tried to get the weapon back with whatever means necessary and not even tell the GMs about it. Now if you try to do anything to this guy, because you reported, this is going to reflect badly on you because you were told not to and went ahead and did it anyway. You pretty much stubbed your own toe on this one at this point.

------------------
Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things. reg

11:21 AM

quote:
Originally posted by CrystalTears:

I remember a thread here not too long ago of someone "finding" a weapon that someone lost and a GM was involved, took the weapon from the guy and gave it back to the owner. That should never have been done because now we'll expect for that service to be done again for others in the same situation, such as this one.

Agreed. How dare we expect Simutronics to treat ALL it's paying customers exactly the same and not "bend the rules" for those they want.

But I do disagree with the "Edge shouldn't get involved" part--from an IC perspective. Edge is Summir's fiance/husband--as such, he SHOULD be expected to defend her honor--hey, that's how it was back in medievil times, wasn't it? That's even how it is many times today. If that happened to me and my fiance didn't rise to the occasion, I'd think twice about settling down with him, so I think if you're going to go the IC/Roleplaying route, then Edge has every right to blast this guy if Summir doesn't. But, that's assuming we're going to call Gemstone a roleplaying game, and it depends upon who the GM on duty is--as we all know, there is no set policy and it varies from GM to GM.

Simutronics--where customer service is 50% guaranteed.
reg

11:44 AMYes, from a roleplaying standpoint he has every right to stand up for her. However, for game sake, it can't be that way because if they allow it, it will open the door to abuse. Someone will get stolen from and then they'll send their friends and family members to take revenge on their behalf, and then you end up with the entire town killing this one person for one incident, then it will get out of hand and impossible to track because it was placed in the hands of too many people.

Personally I don't appreciate there being ANY GM involvement in situations like this. We should be able to police ourselves and report ONLY when resolutions can't be reached AND it's gone way beyond PvP. This has just allowed people to behave like "evil" people and report when they don't like how people react to their actions. reg

12:50 PMOh please, killing someone over and over is harrasment? well when my buddy was hunted down and killed 7 times, for no good reason at ALL, the GMs completely ignored it, how quaint...i mean, my friend didnt even know these people who killed him 7 times, wrote feedback over a course of 3 months and still nothing. reg

12:59 PMDid your friend report immediately after he was killed the first time by people he didn't even know? Did he report after the second? The third? Fourth?

If he didn't, why not? Was it because he provoked the conflict in the first place? Was it because he knew he was breaking the rules and reporting would have just pointed the GMs in his direction?

If he did report, were there any GMs on duty at least in the WHO list?

Telling people "my friend got killed 7 times and nothing was done" - tells us - nothing. At all.

R
reg

01:12 PM

quote:
Originally posted by CrystalTears:
I don't believe anyone said that you can't kill someone who has stolen from you. The problem is that it's against policy to do it repeatedly until you get it back. The same goes with stealing the same person repeatedly. It's called harassment.
Also, you're trying to deal with this almost a month after the fact. Using a quote from David Whatley just seemed like a poor excuse, as though trying to say you have some sort of "pull" and an allowance to do what you please because "David said so". All David said was that "stealing is consented PvP" (actually it should read CvC because once it goes to PvP it's a personal conflict, not a character one and dealing with your personal problems through your characters is against policy as well, I believe).
And I'm sorry to say, being her fiance/husband/father/boyfriend/anything means nothing, unfortunately. You are not allowed to fight your woman's fights or problems. That was her baby to bag, not you, no matter how much you felt you needed to be involved. If you kill this guy, he has the right to report because he stole from Summir not you
What this guy did to you was wrong and is somewhat a traitor to the community for helping others retreieve items back from critters, especially when saying that's what he's going to do. However, it's not policy to give an item back, even if registered. He found it, he has the right to take it.
I have a however too!
I remember a thread here not too long ago of someone "finding" a weapon that someone lost and a GM was involved, took the weapon from the guy and gave it back to the owner. That should never have been done because now we'll expect for that service to be done again for others in the same situation, such as this one.
It's a shame you can't get it back with the GM's help. It really is. You should have done what Pudgee suggested and just tried to get the weapon back with whatever means necessary and not even tell the GMs about it. Now if you try to do anything to this guy, because you reported, this is going to reflect badly on you because you were told not to and went ahead and did it anyway. You pretty much stubbed your own toe on this one at this point.

1} This issue has been ongoing for a few reasons. First of all i couldn't immediately do anything because i was dead when he took off with the shield. He ran back to the cavern, grabbed his other characters, ran back to the landing then logged. Then he went to EN. Then he was gone for awhile, i don't know maybe spring break or something.

3}Whenever you approach him in game about this issue - he runs, or logs his character - which is a primary reason why this issue has been an ongoing situation for over a month now

3} The reason we keep bringing up what David Whatley said is because of the inconsistancy among GM's. One says this, the other says that, in this at least we can get them to think about it..rather then just say "No". We all know that inconsistancy is there.

3} Zurrainn is 15 trains older then Summir. She cannot kill him alone when he is fully spelled up. Think of it this way. A 20 train character drops something, a 100 character picks it up and refuses to return it. Would the GM's get involved then? Simular situation here.

4} I agree with some of the statements reguarding GM involvement, they should just stay out of it and let me do what i feel i must. Since they won't help me, let me help myself. As long as no one else gets hurt. If and this is a huge "IF" he did this as an IC roleplaying scenario, then i should be able to retaliate in a roleplaying scenario. Yes i got the GM's involved when i reported because at the time i was very upset and not thinking things thru. I had no idea there would be a question at all to this matter. I see it as wrong period. No grey areas in my book. Someone at work drops 5 bucks on the ground and you see it, do you return it or keep it when they see you pick it up? You know it's their's, they know it's their's but hey it was on the ground. Should the boss get involved? probably not. should the person that lost it kick the other one's butt for taking it and not returning it? I'd say you put a threat there and they are going to return it.

Summir

reg

01:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by CrystalTears:
Yes, from a roleplaying standpoint he has every right to stand up for her. However, for game sake, it can't be that way because if they allow it, it will open the door to abuse. Someone will get stolen from and then they'll send their friends and family members to take revenge on their behalf, and then you end up with the entire town killing this one person for one incident, then it will get out of hand and impossible to track because it was placed in the hands of too many people.

That's true to an extent. It could get very ugly, very quickly, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. What do I mean? Well--if you're big and bad enough to do the crime--be prepared to do the time. You want to steal? You want to screw people over by telling them you'll help them find their lost shield then take it for yourself because you're roleplaying a dirtbag (or in Tsin's player's case--you just ARE a dirtbag, roleplay has absolutely nothing to do with it) so be it, but don't go crying when it comes time to pay the piper and answer for your deeds. The people who play this game SHOULD be mature enough to understand one of life's simple rules--you sooner or later have to answer for what you do somewhere along the line. If they haven't figured that out yet, then they have no business playing the game. Let them stick to Playstation 2, Nintendo or X-Box.

quote:
Originally posted by CrystalTears:

Personally I don't appreciate there being ANY GM involvement in situations like this. We should be able to police ourselves and report ONLY when resolutions can't be reached AND it's gone way beyond PvP. This has just allowed people to behave like "evil" people and report when they don't like how people react to their actions.

The game is OVERRUN with people like that--and the common dolt can figure out the rather simple solution to deal with people like that is to do as you said, leave the GMs out and only have them intervene when it's gone beyond the means of in character. But, maybe the powers that be at Simu haven't yet mastered the common sense level of the common dolt. Am I bashing Simutronics in this instance? Yes I am, and rightfully so. I'm not going to say they are the devil, the worst company ever and should just close shop, because I don't feel that way, but some of the things they do are just NOT RIGHT, and I'm sorry but when you have a player like TSIN who has not one, two, three but MULTIPLE REPORTS of item theft and a rap sheet that reads like the Encyclopedia Brittanica--maybe it's time to say "This customer is doing more harm than good, maybe we should just let him go." You got to cut your losses sometime. reg

01:18 PMYes he reported after the first time and yes, after the second, third, fourth, fifht sixth and yes, the seventh time, not to mention 4 more times, and each time they told him they are working on it, and then poof, no more of it, the party in offense wasnt punished and even the next week i believe one of his characters meteor swarmed TSC in landing, and the small park, and yet, he didnt get locked out still, now i call that GM favoritism, or he has connections with the GMs reg

01:25 PMDavid has said over and over again he is not here as a represtitive of Simutronics. So what he answers or says won't hold water because he is not here on a offical capacity.

And Summir no its not because of what Tsin did its because of what YOU did. Well actually you and one other person. But no matter what I do your name always seems to come up first. I also would like to stress is what I did is no worse then what Edge has done in the past or continues to do, however I made a mistake and soon as I found out the mistake I attempted to fix it. You however seem to not beable to let go of this and have since taken out a interesting vendetta against my character.

For the last time I HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU GETTING YOUR SHIELD STOLEN.

Is that clear enough for you?

Buckwheet

Edge let her fight her own battles. You said you weren't going to get involved. She is a big girl and I think she can take it. reg

01:43 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Buckwheet:
And Summir no its not because of what Tsin did its because of what YOU did. Well actually you and one other person. But no matter what I do your name always seems to come up first. I also would like to stress is what I did is no worse then what Edge has done in the past or continues to do, however I made a mistake and soon as I found out the mistake I attempted to fix it. You however seem to not beable to let go of this and have since taken out a interesting vendetta against my character.
For the last time I HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU GETTING YOUR SHIELD STOLEN.
Is that clear enough for you?
Buckwheet
Edge let her fight her own battles. You said you weren't going to get involved. She is a big girl and I think she can take it.

Did i ever say you had anything to do with it? NO. You are not listening to what i said at all. I said simply, he plays Manodith as well. That's it. You seem to be the one that won't let it rest stating "she got what she deserves" You are reading more into it then there is. I have taken no vendetta on your character at all. And leave edge out of it, if you want me to fight my own battles. What he's done in his past is just that, his past.

Summir
reg

03:24 PMSo if you're in a bar and you drop a $100 bill and see someone else pick it up, whether he saw you drop it or not, according to this argument, you have the right to beat him to death until he returns it? Wanna find out who's going to get arrested in this scenario? And if you say the guy who picked up the $100 you're wrong.

Anyhow, I don't feel ANY item in the game is worth getting this stressed out over. There are lots of ways to get back at this guy. Leaving him to rot, making sure he doesn't get raised or healed, hope that next time he loses something to a critter that you get the chance to steal it back.

And to the person who said his friend was killed seven times and no one did anything.... all we have is the story your friend told you. I'm sure there are holes in that story that even you don't know about. So let's not throw this into the mix since you can't really back it up. reg

03:43 PM

quote:
Originally posted by CrystalTears:
So if you're in a bar and you drop a $100 bill and see someone else pick it up, whether he saw you drop it or not, according to this argument, you have the right to beat him to death until he returns it? Wanna find out who's going to get arrested in this scenario? And if you say the guy who picked up the $100 you're wrong.

I didn't say that at all. The point i was trying to make is should GM's be involved, and if you put a threat to the person..your more then likely going to get it back. In today's society of course the assaulter would be arrested.

quote:
Originally posted by CrystalTears:
Anyhow, I don't feel ANY item in the game is worth getting this stressed out over. There are lots of ways to get back at this guy. Leaving him to rot, making sure he doesn't get raised or healed, hope that next time he loses something to a critter that you get the chance to steal it back.

He has access to a healer and a cleric. And i'm sure since all of this has happened he doesn't carry anything he doesn't mind losing.

Summir

[This message has been edited by Summir (edited 04-07-2002).] reg

05:11 PMThe fact that you attacked my character with serverl reports and complaints does somehow translate into you taking a vendetta out against my character.

You decided to do whatever it takes to get rid of Tsin/Zurrainn and we all know that Edge has several ways of contacting me and you decided to NOT use anyone of these avenues and decided to stab me in the back serveral times. So what I am complaining about is that you can not say you have any right to stand up for your morales when you turned around and sortof blackmailed/stabbed me in the back to get what you wanted.

Even though now what you wanted is no longer going to happen, and the sabatoge you tried to do has been mostly undone, atleast in the case of Tsin/Zurrainn I however will be looking forward to making my end tied up.

And really I will have to make a seperate topic on why I feel this way if you come back with some half-truth.

Buckwheet reg

05:12 PMBuckwheat. You keep bringing me into this or I would stay out of it. We already had a long talk about this.

<<So if you're in a bar and you drop a $100 bill and see someone else pick it up, whether he saw you drop it or not, according to this argument, you have the right to beat him to death until he returns it? Wanna find out who's going to get arrested in this scenario? And if you say the guy who picked up the $100 you're wrong.>>

Put it this way. If I dropped a 100 dollar bill and you said. Let me help you find it. Then found it and kept it and later bragged about it. You might as well bend over and kiss your ass goodbye..

edge reg

05:17 PM

quote:
Put it this way. If I dropped a 100 dollar bill and you said. Let me help you find it. Then found it and kept it and later bragged about it. You might as well bend over and kiss your ass goodbye..

Amen.

Sonic reg

08:14 PMToo much talking, not enough killing Zurrainn.

If this happened 3 or 4 years ago I guarantee you could kill Zurrainn, people would help you do it and nothing would happen.

This is yet another instance of how pussified and lame this game is becoming. I personally think it is OOC if a old evil 100 year old sorcerer is not allowed to kill or stun a 20 year old halfling rogue turnip farmer who thinks it's fun to kick old people and report abuse if they react.

I fear in a year or 2 I will not be allowed to kill someone if they murder me raid my corpse and ride my dead body around town yelling '' Ice is my girlfriend ''.

<mutter>
reg

09:31 PMI normally stay out of other peoples dealings with GM's, I have had enough bad ones of my own to worry about. Anyone who knows me or Drevn knows how disheartened I am about how Gemstone has become. The only comment I want to make (and I don't even know why I am posting it) is that I will stand by/protect/defend/avenge my close friends in the game until the day they lock me out.

Drevn, the tired one.... reg

01:37 AMLet me start by giving my condolences to Summir for the loss of her shield. I truly hope Zurrain will return it, but if he has not already, then without GM prompting I doubt he ever will.

Which brings us to the current situation, and the more I think about it, the uglier it seems to get. First off, does anyone think that Zurrain will let Edge and Summir kill him (just once, let alone repeatedly) without retaliation? Based upon Summir’s previous posts, it seems Zurrain is somewhere in the 140’s, if this is true, what is to stop him from hunting both of you down to extract revenge?

Please note, I have never seen any of the parties in question during a fight, so I really don’t know if Zurrain has the power to kill Edge or summir, but at 15 trains higher, it does seem reasonable.

So now we have two groups wantonly killing each other, with one side having to resort to mass destruction spells to get the job done. How long before those mass destruction spells kills an innocent, whom then decides to pay back in kind?

That is why I feel the GM’s will nip this situation in the butt as soon as the killing gets started, and the aftermath is when Edge’s past may well come back to haunt him. Edge, you have stated on many occasions, that several GM’s hold no love for you, that being the case, why would you give them such an opportunity to get rid of you once and for all (or at least banned for a period of time)? I’m not saying you should take this lying down, but there has to be a better way to handle it than repeated killing (which I am sorry to say, is harassment). It is at least worth pondering a different solution.

Either way, if you are both set on waging war, I wish you the best, because I do think you were wronged. But if you do, I fear we will be reading a post here in a few weeks complaining about the unfair banning (or lockout) based upon this ordeal.
reg

02:16 AMLeast no more Tsin for him

Thats a small gift from me to you edge n Summ
But thank Tsin's owner mostly

Vivid reg

02:22 AMYou guys are STILL crying about a make believe shield?

jesus.

the whatley name dropping really impresses also...

'lood
good grief reg

09:14 AMTo bad he got Tsin back huh?

Buckwheet reg

04:39 PM<<You guys are STILL crying about a make believe shield?
jesus.

the whatley name dropping really impresses also...

'lood
good grief>>

I can't believe you take your time to post about a game that has make believe stuff.

Jesus.

As for my killing Zurrain they told me I can't. Which I will not. But I will do other things. Like nonstop let people know what he did.

He got killed right after he was raised by his cleric. So the cleric was punished for an hour. Nobody would raise him for almost an hour because I kept letting the clerics know what he did. This is where it will stand. I will let EVERYONE know in the lands how he has stolen from Summir and scams.

He just has to return the item and it all ends. Only staying in EN for this soul purpose. Would rather head back to the landing.

edge

[This message has been edited by edge (edited 04-08-2002).] reg

02:27 AM>>I'm sorry but when you have a player like TSIN who has not one, two, three but MULTIPLE REPORTS of item theft and a rap sheet that reads like the Encyclopedia Brittanica--maybe it's time to say "This customer is doing more harm than good, maybe we should just let him go." You got to cut your losses sometime. - Crystaltears

So much for that high-maintenance policy, eh? -grins-

- Pudgee reg

03:52 AM

quote:

I can't believe you take your time to post about a game that has make believe stuff.
Jesus.

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense.

'lood
"Face it walter, their isn't any connection" reg

07:03 AMHey Pudge! That wasn't me! Quote it right, that was Princess!

Anyhoo, there's a difference between having a conversation about an online game, and arguing, fighting and revenging over items in it.

[This message has been edited by CrystalTears (edited 04-09-2002).] reg

01:03 PMTsin could very well be a HMC. You would only find this out if he reported that Edge killed him and nobody came.

I think even with the rep Edge has with the GM's nobody would have come if Tsin did report him so that would lead me to believe he is HMC.

Buckwheet reg

04:13 PM<<I'm sorry, but that makes no sense.>>

Only to you.

edge

reg

04:19 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Buckwheet:
Tsin could very well be a HMC. You would only find this out if he reported that Edge killed him and nobody came.
I think even with the rep Edge has with the GM's nobody would have come if Tsin did report him so that would lead me to believe he is HMC.
Buckwheet

Is that how HMC works? I had always thought that when you reached that status they just locked you out for progresively longer periods of time.

That was just an assumption on my part perhaps.

But does it work like you described there?
Once there you are almost like living in your own little "Gemstone The Fallen" universe for one?

Just wondering here if anyone knows for sure. reg

11:32 PMI think it is more along the lines of if someone reports the HMC customer they will give you longer lockouts, and will lock you out with less questioning.

I also think the opposite is true. If you are HMC and you report something they don't want to tie up resources helping you out.

if it doesn't work this way I wish it would.

Kick you out faster, help you out less.

Buckwheet reg

10:42 AM

quote:

<<I'm sorry, but that makes no sense.>>
Only to you.

ok edge, would you mind explaning it to me, the horribly dense, because it obviously makes tons of sense to everyone else.

'lood

[This message has been edited by kelood (edited 04-10-2002).] reg

12:48 PM

quote:
Originally posted by kelood:
ok edge, would you mind explaning it to me, the horribly dense, because it obviously makes tons of sense to everyone else.

I'm not Edge - but I'll take a crack at it.

You had posted this:

quote:

You guys are STILL crying about a make believe shield?
jesus.

Then Edge came back with this:

quote:
I can't believe you take your time to post about a game that has make believe stuff.

You posted about Edge complaining about the "make believe shield".

Edge's response infers that since you obviously think something like "an 8x make believe shield" is insignificant, why do you even bother posting anything about a game that is ALL make believe items.

Thats my spin on it - and makes sense to me. reg

02:33 PMDense people, stop arguing about this crap and just kill Zurrainn again and again until he leaves, he doesn't do anything GOOD in the game, therefore it shouldn't matter if he's killed, against policy or not.

Policies and laws are supposed to protect the "good" people, he isn't good, therefore I don't think any policies should protect him.

It's like murder is against the law.
but if someone murder's, they in turn can be murdered for murdering. It may be against the law to murder, but exceptions are made.

Let's make one here. reg

02:33 PMExactly why it makes no sense.

See, in order to INFER that, you must assume anything insignificant shouldn't be participated in.

I think rec league hockey is pretty insignificant, but i'll still watch the games. What i won't do is yell and scream and start fights with parents over an insignificant game.

See, the same type of people who will cry and whine and threaten people over a computer game are the same types of people who beat up referee's of highschool football games (or worse).

How you can jump from one thing to another and think its some great logical reasoning makes no sense to me.

'lood
reg

03:59 PM

quote:
Originally posted by kelood:
Exactly why it makes no sense.

I think you are far in the minority with that perspective.

You say "you can't believe he's complaining about a make believe shield".

So, he says "he can't believe you post about a game in which everything is make believe".

Both of you are in disbelief of the others actions.

Totally logical to me.

[Not that it matters one bit. So what if you and Edge are in disbelief of one another - and your sense of logic is different than mine.

It very well may be that Edge has a totally different spin on it altogether - which still doesn't make any difference in the big picture anyway.] reg

04:07 PMMagister (and I'm sure most everyone else) nailed it.

edge

[This message has been edited by edge (edited 04-10-2002).] reg

04:36 PM<<See, the same type of people who will cry and whine and threaten people over a computer game are the same types of people who beat up referee's of highschool football games (or worse).>>

Riiigghhhttt....

A bad call in a football game is not the same as a imaginary shield that has a street value of 160 bucks.

Now if a referee purposely made a bad call against my son then bragged about it. Then the league doesn't do anything about it. I certainly have enough guts (be it right, or be it wrong) to stand up for myself and let everyone know what a scumbag this guy is.

edge
"A true coward does nothing"
reg

08:08 PMSummir wrote feedback and this is it with the reply.

----- Original Message -----
From: "GS Feedback" <gsfeedback@simutronics.com>
To: "Carla Walter" <CarlaWalter@cfl.rr.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Miscellaneous

> At 01:39 PM 4/7/02, you wrote:
>
>
> > couple more facts to add:
> >
> > Zurrainn knows the shield belongs to Summir, and has admitted as such
in
> >game, and out of game on the Player's Corner (an Unofficial Gemstone
board)
> >
> > Whenever you approach him in game about this issue - he runs, or logs
his
> > character - which is a primary reason why this issue has been an
ongoing
> > situation for over a month now
> >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <carlawalter@cfl.rr.com>
> > > To: <gsfeedback@simutronics.com>
> > > Cc: <carlawalter@cfl.rr.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 11:08 AM
> > > Subject: Miscellaneous
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > THIS IS AN AUTOMATIC COPY OF YOUR CUSTOMER SERVICE REQUEST.
> > > > A RESPONSE WILL BE SENT IN 7-10 DAYS. THANK YOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Date/Time : 4/7/2002 10:08:15 AM
> > > > Account Name : SUMMIR (Carla M Walter)
> > > > Game : GemStone III
> > > > Character : Summir
> > > > Browser : Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; MSNIA;
Windows
> >98)
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > a) Summir was using the shield that Edgeleaf had Enchanted and
loaned
> > > > to her
> > > > b) The shield was registered to Summir
> > > > c) Summir was cursed, the shield was dropped
> > > > d) Zurrainn said he would go help retrieve Summir's shield
> > > > e) Zurrainn retrieved the shield, now has it, and refuses to return
it
> > > > f) David Whatley has stated that it is consent to CvC - please feel
> > > > free to ask him....
> > > > g) Edge/Summir assisted and spoke to GM Krylan - who stated that
they
> > > > can not do anything said it was not technicially stolen...
> > > >
> > > > We do not feel this is a just or fair decision.
> > > >
> > > > If the same circumstances were applied to a situation like:
> > > > A level 20 person dropped their shield from a curse, and a level 100
> > > > person came in and took it, and decided to keep it
> > > > The level 20 person is unable to do anything, just as Summir/Edge
are
> > > > unable to.
> > > > Therefore, would we be able to sell the 8x shield that is in the
> > > > possession of Zurrainn to someone, that would have the ability to
> > > > retrieve it?
> > > >
> > > > We think that from an IC perspective - this is totally appropriate -
> > > > and even as recent as a few years ago - most of the older age folks
> > > > would have intervened and retrieved the shield from Zurrainn by
force
> > > > - and nothing would have been said.
> > > >
> > > > We appreciate your help on this matter - and hope that you will make
> > > > the in-character AND moral decision.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Summir's player
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
>
> Good day,
> Thank you for bringing your concerns to my attention. After a
> review of all the records and information within the case, I do have some
> points to bring to your attention. As has been noted in your logs, in
> addition to the post which you quote David Whatley, you are claiming that
> PvP was permitted. PvP and CvC, while they may appear to be the same
> thing, I can assure you they are not. PvP, Player vs Player, conflicts
are
> the actions taken upon another adventurer based upon information learned,
> insults received and other similar types of behavior in an OOG/OOC (Out of
> Genre/Out of Character) manner. Instant messages, message board postings,
> phone calls and other similar forms of contact are all considered within
> this type of transaction. Taking action upon any other adventurer because
> of information gained via these methods is considered PvP and, hence,
> against policy.
> CvC, Character vs Character, conflicts are within the rules and
> bounds inside the game. These types of conflicts occur from various
> methods, theft being one of the reasons, and the information itself is
> garnered through the interactions of your characters (not via other
methods
> of contact as listed above). While, in essence, both methods are very
> similar to each other, there is a very fine line that can be crossed,
> making the difference in a situation being a violation of policy or not.
> Another piece of information that I had reviewed in the
> information during your ASSIST/REFERRAL is that you state that you will
use
> area effect spells in order to obtain your retribution. I will notify
you,
> at this point, that if you intend to use this method of retribution, if
any
> other parties, who are not a part of this conflict, get injured due to
your
> usage of such methods, you may receive warnings and/or lockouts as
dictated
> by our policy on Disruptive Behavior as the situation has gone from being
a
> conflict between a small amount of characters to a disruption to
> adventurers not involved in the conflict.
> Now, to the matter of retrieving the shield, staff will not get
> involved in this situation to retrieve the shield because the mechanics of
> the game that enabled the other party to obtain them were working
properly,
> so the other party did not violate policy in their acquiring of the
shield,
> in addition to, their refusal to return the shield is not a violation of
> policy. If you should have any further questions, please let me
> know. Thank you and safe adventures.
>
>
> GameMaster Antavian Giantwind
> Feedback, Simutronics Corporation
>
> (If you are replying to this letter, please be sure to include the full
> text of your previous correspondence)
>

edge reg

10:12 PM

quote:

David Whatley has stated that it is consent to CvC - please feel
> > > > free to ask him....

reg

10:31 PM PvP, Player vs Player, conflicts
are
> the actions taken upon another adventurer based upon information learned,
> insults received and other similar types of behavior in an OOG/OOC (Out of
> Genre/Out of Character) manner. Instant messages, message board postings,
> phone calls and other similar forms of contact are all considered within
> this type of transaction. Taking action upon any other adventurer because
> of information gained via these methods is considered PvP and, hence,
> against policy.
> CvC, Character vs Character, conflicts are within the rules and
> bounds inside the game. These types of conflicts occur from various
> methods, theft being one of the reasons, and the information itself is
> garnered through the interactions of your characters (not via other
methods
> of contact as listed above). While, in essence, both methods are very
> similar to each other, there is a very fine line that can be crossed,
> making the difference in a situation being a violation of policy or not.

--------------------

If Edgeleaf found out about the problem and tried intervening after reading about the situation on these boards, then I would agree that this is PvP. However, Edgeleaf is Summir's soon-to-be husband (or is?) so that is something that can be very well handled in-character.

So yes, if this were me or someone else here trying to kill Zurrain, then it would be PvP, but since Edgeleaf is Summir's significant other, that is CvC.

- Pudgee
reg

11:38 PM
You gave CS an out by saying PvP instead of CvC in reference to what David Whatley said and they used it against you in a long, rambling denial. David almost certainly meant PvP in the sense of CvC, not in the strict hair-splitting that CS threw back at you. Unfortunate, but that's how the great legal minds (tongue firmly in cheek here) in Simutronics Customer Service think.
As for David Whatley being overruled: It happened again after VegasCon. His statement "what's wrong with katanas" there has since been over-turned by staff - again. In spite of the completely nonsensical view that katanas are OOG, when one can go into the back room of the weapon shop and buy a naginata - from the same genre, country and historical period as a katana. David Whatley often speaks ex cathedra and is then ignored by his own people who must maintain the confused internal inconsistency of Gemstone. So no surprise that they ignored his comments on stealing, or chose to misinterpret them - again.
Good luck on getting the shield back.
reg

02:46 AMHahaha.

You can stop quoting David as if he is some personal friend of yours.

He didn't allow you to use what he said in the first place because he is not posting here as a rep for his company.

Buckwheet reg

03:07 AMZurrainn waves to you.
>
Tarakan takes a bite of his ambrominas leaf.
Tarakan's left arm looks better.
>
Keffal asks, "fog frm inside does that?"
>
Tarakan put some ambrominas leaf in his apothecary satchel.
>
Krovax says, "its up in the north east part"
>
Contesserina gets an odd look on her face for a moment.
>'Going to return the shield?
You ask, "Going to return the shield?"
>
Tsin approaches the shimmering magical barrier. As he makes contact with the barrier, crackling energies stream out of the sentinels to coalesce in a blinding flash around his form!

When your eyes have readjusted, Tsin has vanished!
>
Krovax says, "no, from here"
>pre 515
A low chirping sound comes from within a polished ebony cricket box.
>
You concentrate on the Rapid Fire spell...
Your spell is ready.
>cast
You gesture.
You feel the magic surge through you.
(Your next spell will be re-prepared upon its casting.)
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
Contesserina says, "fog from here does that"
>pre 917
Krovax removes a sharp-curved brilliant green dagger from in his black cloak.
You concentrate on the Boil Earth spell...
Your spell is ready.
>
The scintillating light fades from Boomsplat's hands.
>
Krovax offers Contesserina a sharp-curved brilliant green dagger.
cast zur
>cast zur

You gesture at Zurrainn.
The ground beneath Zurrainn begins to boil violently!
Fiery debris explodes from the ground!
... 5 points of damage!
Blow connects with abdomen.
... 15 points of damage!
Burst of flames to right leg blackens kneecap.
He is stunned!
... 30 points of damage!
Extreme heat causes Zurrainn's right leg to expand and snap. That must hurt!
He is knocked to the ground!
The ground then quickly cools.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>cast zur

You gesture at Zurrainn.
The ground beneath Zurrainn begins to boil violently!
Fiery debris explodes from the ground!
... 5 points of damage!
Blow grazes right arm lightly.
... 5 points of damage!
Minor burns to back. Looks uncomfortable.
... 15 points of damage!
Burst of flames char chest a crispy black.
... 15 points of damage!
Burst of flames chars neck a crispy black.
The ground then quickly cools.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>cast zur

You gesture at Zurrainn.
The ground beneath Zurrainn begins to boil violently!
Fiery debris explodes from the ground!
... 15 points of damage!
Nice blow to head!
Zurrainn looks dazed!
... 25 points of damage!
Flames incinerate left leg to the bone. Not a pleasant sight.

* Zurrainn drops dead at your feet!

The wall of force disappears from around Zurrainn.
A white glow rushes away from Zurrainn.
The white light leaves Zurrainn.
The very powerful look leaves Zurrainn.
The light blue glow leaves Zurrainn.
The air calms down around Zurrainn.
The opalescent aura fades from around Zurrainn.
The translucent sphere fades from around Zurrainn.
The bright luminescence fades from around Zurrainn.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around Zurrainn.
The dim aura fades from around Zurrainn.
The tingling sensation and sense of security leaves Zurrainn.
Zurrainn comes back into focus.
Zurrainn seems to be in a different place than you remember.
Zurrainn glances around, looking a bit less confident.
The silvery luminescence fades from around Zurrainn.
The deep blue glow leaves Zurrainn.
The powerful look leaves Zurrainn.
The ground then quickly cools.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>cast zur

You gesture at Zurrainn.
[Spell Hindrance for some svelte black elven brigandine is 8% with current Armor Use skill, d100= 7]
Your armor prevents the spell from working correctly.
> * Zurrainn just bit the dust!
>
You don't have a spell prepared!
>
Contesserina says, "ack"
Krovax laughs!
>release
You don't have a prepared spell to release!
>
Keffal gestures and utters a phrase of magic.
>l
[Gyldemar Road, Sentinels]
The roadway rises slightly above the swamp. From the appearances, someone has purposely built a small hillock here atop which two massive granite sentinels stand, silent and unmoving. No method of circumventing the sentinels presents itself. If one wishes to continue along the road in an easterly direction, one must pass between the sentinels. Westward the road slides into the swamp and fights to stay above the sucking mud. You also see an obscure scroll, the Boomsplat disk, the Edgeleaf disk, an enruned mithril coffer with a bundle of griffin talons on it and the Contesserina disk.
Also here: the body of High Lord Zurrainn who is lying down, Lord Krovax, Boomsplat, Keffal, Tarakan who is lying down, Contesserina, Great Lady Secilly
Obvious paths: west.
>
Tarakan says, "seems to have died at my feet"
Krovax offers Tarakan a sharp-curved brilliant green dagger.
>
Contesserina sighs.
>
Keffal gestures at you.
CS: +686 - TD: +555 + CvA: +8 + d100: +76 - -5 == +220
Warding failed!
Your mind goes completely blank.
Forced to stance offensive.
>
You feel less drained.
>
High Lord Tsin just arrived.
>
You awake from a dream startled. You are lying down.
Krovax pokes you in the ribs.
>'I have asked you to return the shield
You say, "I have asked you to return the shield"
>
You hear the ghostly voice of Zurrainn say, "and I don't have it"
>'Now give me the shield you stole
You say, "Now give me the shield you stole"
>
Tarakan says, "need to heal a bit to accept"
>
Suddenly you have the strangest feeling that you are being watched.
The feeling fades as quickly as it came.
>
Tsin says, "now I could kill you easily"
Tarakan removes some sovyn clove from in his apothecary satchel.
>
Krovax nods to Tarakan.
>
Tarakan takes a bite of his sovyn clove.
Tarakan's right arm is fully restored.
>
Tsin says, "but you're not worth it"
>
Keffal says, "ya know, i might me inclined to do some killin"
>
Tarakan says, "I'm easy to kill too"
>
Krovax says, "yes you are"
>
Krovax nods to Tarakan.
>
Tarakan takes a bite of his sovyn clove.
Tarakan's left arm is fully restored.
>'ya, but when Zurrain stole the shield he consented to CvC
You feel the surge of magic depart.
>
You say, "ya, but when Zurrain stole the shield he consented to CvC"
>
The focused look leaves Contesserina.
>
You hear the ghostly voice of Zurrainn say, "i never stole anything"
>'But I never consented to PvP with you tsin
You say, "But I never consented to PvP with you tsin"
>
Tarakan's black goat pin relaxes and takes a small rest.
>
Tarakan put some sovyn clove in his apothecary satchel.
'you already bragged about it
>You say, "you already bragged about it"
>
Tarakan accepts Krovax's brilliant green dagger.
>
You hear the ghostly voice of Zurrainn say, "i never stole YOUR shield"
>
Keffal gestures and utters a phrase of magic.
>
Keffal gestures.
>
You hear the ghostly voice of Zurrainn say, "and i never consented to pvp"
think to allanor I killed him
>You focus your mind on Allanor and think:
"I killed him"
Roundtime 5 seconds.
>
Keffal works his way out of some dark blue scale leathers.
>
Tarakan put a sharp-curved brilliant green dagger in his spidersilk cloak.
>
You hear the ghostly voice of Zurrainn say, "so grow up"
>
Keffal gestures and utters a phrase of magic.
>
Suddenly you have the strangest feeling that you are being watched.
The feeling fades as quickly as it came.
Keffal gestures.
A brilliant luminescence surrounds Keffal.
>'I enchanted it
You say, "I enchanted it"
>
Keffal gestures and utters a phrase of magic.
>
Keffal gestures.
A bright luminescence surrounds Keffal.
Keffal says, "so report him"
>'loaned it to Summir
You say, "loaned it to Summir"
>
You see a wave of energy emanate from Contesserina toward Zurrainn. It coalesces around his body and then seeps in, leaving a glow around the body.
>
Keffal gestures and utters a phrase of magic.
>
Keffal gestures.
A silvery luminescence surrounds Keffal.
>
Keffal gestures and utters a phrase of magic.
>
You hear the ghostly voice of Zurrainn say, "woah"
>
Keffal gestures.
A translucent sphere forms around Keffal.
>
You hear the ghostly voice of Zurrainn say, "an enchanter"
>
Krovax says, "reporting is lame"
Boomsplat says, "Report'n is'ums fer da weak."
>
Boomsplat waves his hand in a dismissive gesture.
>
Keffal gestures and utters a phrase of magic.
>
Keffal gestures.
A translucent sphere forms around Keffal.
>
Krovax nods to Boomsplat.

edge

Wish Tsin did kill me. Left my shield and weapon up to make sure he killed me if he tried..........

Some nice quotes from the bystanders.

Boomsplat says, "Steal'n is'ums find'n sumtins on da ground dat'ums ye knows belongs ta sumones else."

Tarakan says, "the typical Zurraine tends to take 3 boils to be cooked"

Krovax says, "you must want to stay dead"

A cloud of dense silvery fog suddenly appears. The fog quickly dissipates to reveal Skarletbegonias.
>
Tarakan gestures and utters a phrase of magic.
>
Tarakan gestures.
>
Skarletbegonias reaches down and tenderly cradles Zurrainn's lifeless hand in hers.
>
Skarletbegonias gestures and utters a phrase of magic.
>
Skarletbegonias gestures.
Skarletbegonias's group becomes blurred, and then vanishes!
>
Krovax says, "wonder where they landed"

Tsin says, "you were told by several GM's that even if he had taken it.. it wasn't stealing"
>
Tsin says, "and he never consented to pvp"
>whisper boom I left my shield and weapon down hoping he would strike at me
Tsin says, "because he would rape you"

----------------------------------------

Contesserina asks, "Tsin... did he pick up the shield, and then give it away?"
>
Contesserina sighs.
>
Tsin waves to you.
>'difference
You say, "difference"
>'by stealing you consent to that
You say, "by stealing you consent to that"
>
Tsin says, "he never stole anything from Edgeleaf to consent to pvp"
>
Keffal gestures and utters a phrase of magic.
>
Tarakan faces Keffal, closes his eyes and begins chanting. Suddenly, a small bolt of energy arcs between them!

Tarakan opens his eyes, looking slightly drained.
>
Keffal gestures at Tarakan.
A translucent sphere forms around Tarakan.
>
Keffal gestures and utters a phrase of magic.
>
Keffal gestures at Tarakan.
A translucent sphere forms around Tarakan.
>'Not PvP
You say, "Not PvP"
>
Tsin says, "and he doesn't have the shield"
>
Tsin says, "and can't get it"
'CvC
>You say, "CvC"
>'he is avoiding the question
You say, "he is avoiding the question"
>
Keffal gestures and utters a phrase of magic.
>
Tsin says, "it's gone"
>'he picked it
You say, "he picked it"
>

Contesserina asks, "how did it get out of his posession?"
>
Keffal gestures at Tarakan.
Tarakan appears somehow changed.
>
Tsin says, "get over it"
>'up
You say, "up"
>
Tsin slides an intricate gold and brass ring on his finger.
Suddenly Tsin vanishes!
>
Keffal gestures and utters a phrase of magic.
>
Keffal gestures at Tarakan.
Tarakan appears somehow changed.
>
Keffal gestures and utters a phrase of magic.
>
Keffal gestures at Tarakan.
Tarakan looks considerably more imposing.
>
Keffal gestures and utters a phrase of magic.
>
Keffal gestures at Tarakan.
Tarakan looks considerably more imposing.
>
Tarakan says, "semantics are a lovely tool for obfuscation"

**duck and roll!**

Tarakan says, "point B: what you did is stealing in most players books, regardless of technicality"

Tarakan says, "point B retorts: yer at fault since yer a weasel"
reg

04:31 AM

quote:

You say, "ya, but when Zurrain stole the shield he consented to CvC"

yes, a totally in character conflict right there, complete with great roleplaying...
reg

05:20 AMMan I think this a bunch of crap. I mean seriously, let's look at what's going on here. Summir got cursed, dropped her shield, and some asshole walks by and snatches it up. Now maybe it's just me..but I'm reading from POLICY 4 here..

"For example, a pickpocket stealing items or silvers. This *can* be considered an open invitation for CvC, but losing 25 silvers isn't exactly cause for death. Losing large amounts might be though." Now...what constitues as a large amount? Well at 160$ IRL, that cashes out to about 8 million silver. Sounds like a reason for an ass-beating to me. But hey man, I don't know what the GMs would say about TWO deaths. I mean..I can't even tell where Kelood starts and Whatley ends with his mouth all over his knob like that. But hey, that's me.

[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 04-11-2002).] reg

06:13 AMAll y'all keep the vulgarities and direct flames to yourselves. We have a ToS on these boards. You're expected to be mature enough to adhere to them.

R
reg

06:58 AMShould I bother saying "what I think" since my opinion is VERY close to Buckwheet's and Kelood's opinion? Apparently those aren't acceptable. This thread should have been named "my shield-snatching rant".

He took a shield off a critters (morally wrong but not really considered stealing) that belonged to Summir. You had nothing to do with it, I don't care if you enchanted it ten times, kissed, rubbed and massaged it for a full day, and handed it over with furry gloves to avoid scratches to Summir (your fiance, not even your wife.. not that it makes a difference), it still doesn't make it your battle to tackle. If all you do is kill him whenever you see him, it's called harassment, but hey, do whatever makes you feel good. You seem to think you're in the right so go for it.

As long as it all makes you feel better. Want to keep quoting David in an OOC forum who said many times he was speaking as a regular Joe, not as a rep? Fine. I agreed with how they answered in the feedback. If you had dealt with it only in game and left the conflicts in the game, then this wouldn't be a problem. But now it's a PvP problem because your actions are focused more on his responses to you OUT of the game. And since now it's been through feedback and assists, they're going to keep an extra eye on all happenings around you. Good luck.

[This message has been edited by CrystalTears (edited 04-11-2002).] reg

10:28 AM

quote:
Originally posted by edge:
* Zurrainn drops dead at your feet!

I don't get it. I have a few questions.
1. Why did you assist about area effect spells? There is no way the GM's are going to say "Sure, kill whoever you have to in order to get your revenge."
2. Why did you say that the only way you could kill him was with area effect spells when it's pretty clear a boil earth will work just fine.
3. After all your distrust of GM's, why in the seven hells were you assisting about this? I would never assist if I was planning on killing someone.

If it was because of his logging off everytime you are around, I still don't get it. He would have just logged off when he saw the meteor storm messaging.

reg

04:04 PMCrystalTears read Pudgees post. Seems like you missed that one. There is a IC reason. I guess you wouldn't stand up for your significant other. That is your choice, not mine. Also I am glad you condone stealing and scamming. Lets us know what type of person you really are.

Darkranger. I wanted to push them into doing something about the shield. I know you would stand up for your woman.

People make choices in life. Now what they do is their business. But you got to live with it. If you let people steal, scam or abuse you. They are always going to do it. But if they know you are going to do something about it. Then they will think twice about it. Think anyone wants to fight Tyson? I don't think so. They know they may get more then knocked out.

I can't help that people are cowards. They can only be brave from behind a PC screen. But like Drevn said. I will stand up for my friends and family till they day they lock me out. Only scum will not.

edge

[This message has been edited by LordKranar (edited 04-11-2002).] reg

04:14 PMI've been following this thread and think it's time I threw in my two cents worth. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Edgeleaf or Tsin or Zurrainn or whomever, the fact that Zurrainn knew who the shield belonged to and refused to return it is plain wrong, regardless of how you slice or dice the situation. If Simu is refusing to get involved to have it returned, then they should also not get involved in Edgeleaf's retaliation. In any world, you steal and get caught, you get dealt with - it's very cut and dry.

Along the same lines, Tsin/Zurrainn borrowed 3M in coins from me almost a year ago - back before I knew what a liar and a cheat he was - back before I knew how he took advantage of the kindness of others. To this day when I see him, he tells me he has no money, nada, zilch - all the while he and his umpteen other characters who are prancing around in millions upon millions worth of gear - he brags to me about how many alterations he gets on a weekly basis, etc. Has he ever heard of possibly selling ONE thing he owns to pay me back? Nope. Do I think he'll ever pay me back? Nope. So what am I to do? Chalk it up to experience and say to hell with it? Retaliate? I haven't decided yet.

Bottom line is - There is plenty of room for asses in this game, but there should also be equal room given to seek and destroy them if they wrong you.

~Kraiz reg

04:24 PMSorry to hear about yet another victim of Tsin/Zurrainn. Although i never lend money, if someone asks me for it and i have it {providing they are friends} i give it. If they pay me back that's fine. If they don't i wasn't expecting it anyway. But i know for a fact within the last year Tsin/Zurrainn has made MANY very large purchases. He should have paid his debt to you before buying himself anything.

Summir reg

04:32 PMEdge, in general I agree that in taking a shield he knew belonged to someone else he did a pretty scummy thing.

You are however losing the support you seemed to have earlier though such vehement self-righteous tirades.

You have already made the point that he is a very much less than trustworthy person. There is no need to go on so and alienate even more people.

Just say, "He was a real dirtbag, I'm going to continue on in an character crusade against him and take the consequences if I must." and I think most would say good luck and mean it. I would.

reg

04:49 PM

quote:
Originally posted by edge:
CrystalTears read Pudgees post. Seems like you missed that one. There is a IC reason. I guess you wouldn't stand up for your significant other. That is your choice, not mine. Also I am glad you condone stealing and scamming. Lets us know what type of person you really are.
edge

And I guess YOU missed it where I said that I wasn't speaking about the IC motive, but that is how relationships are treated in the game. They mean nothing. I never EVER said that people shouldn't stand up for their loved ones. What I SAID was that it means NOTHING in this game because if you let one person avenge your problems, then what's to stop it from everyone ganging up one person because of what one person tells them to do. In fact, I even said that I wish GMs would let us fight our own battles and not interfere with our character problems, but I guess you missed that point too. Just doing the usual selective reading again for the little parts you don't agree with.

AND I said that he was morally wrong for him to take the shield, but it wasn't considered stealing because he didn't take it away from Summir herself. I ALSO said that consistantly killing someone to get the item back was harassment. Please show me where I said "yey thieving.. go him!" and I'll apologize and reword it since it apparently didn't come across that way to you.

I'm speaking about the game when I'm posting. If you really think I'm all about thieving and scamming, then you really don't know me.

I'm also going to side with someone who said earlier... you're such a hardcore anti-GM person, and yet you went to them for their support? Why? Because you had a David Whatley quote? I don't understand that part at all.

If you knew they wouldn't help you and interfere, why are you making it harder on yourself by blatently telling them that you want to use area effect spells to kill him and that you have spoken with this thief through IMs, emails and board postings making it crystal clear to them that this is a personal problem that you have with him.

A moral thing? I'm not sure anyone has the authority or the ability to instill morality in someone, let alone someone who was two-faced with you in a "rescue" mission.

Oh and that TOS Desharai was talking about was probably aimed towards the post directly above it who was being vulgar, not you. Wanna try reading ALL the posts before you make accusations like the ones you've mentioned?

But hey, like I said, if it makes you guys feel better to kill someone over and over and over again (even though I'm sure he deserves it) to satisfy your need to seek revenge, be my guest. Just please, do us a favor and don't come back here bitching and complaining about how you got locked out for killing this guy for the fourth time even after the GMs told you not to. Good luck!!

[This message has been edited too many times by CrystalTears (edited 04-11-2002).]

[This message has been edited by CrystalTears (edited 04-11-2002).] reg

04:50 PM>>yes, a totally in character conflict right there, complete with great roleplaying...>>I see we got the official representative of G.L.A.D. You can go back to your queer as folk show please.

>>CrystalTears read Pudgees post. Seems like you missed that one. There is a IC reason. I guess you wouldn't stand up for your significant other. That is your choice, not mine. Also I am glad you condone stealing and scamming. Lets us know what type of person you really are. - Edge

-coughs-

While I AM on your side of this whole conflict, I was going to post the same thing that they did. While in-characterly (heh, new word!), it's your right to kill Zurrainn due to him stealing something from your soon-to-be significant other, you need to continue to keep everything in-character or else things WILL turn into PvP.

What I mean by that is that as much as you may hate him, you still have to continue to roleplay the situation out and not spout of policy or anything about reports, GMs, and the like. Once you do so, things turn into PvP (your personal rage against him, especially considering the fact that you continue to bring up the RL price of the shield) and then the GMs will step in and you're SOL. If you continue to say OOC things, then this supposedly "in-character" conflict turns out to be just an excuse for you to kill him and take out your rage.

Trust me, I've been in many situations like this where I, or a friend, was the victim and then we got screwed due to us finally snapping. That's what those lil schnits do, they just continue to wait around and la de da their way until you can't take it anymore and then you snap and then the GMs end up seeing YOU do a bad thing, then you get busted for it while they get their jollies out of the whole situation while getting to keep your shield.

What you need to do is somehow set him up or something and let the GMs see him doing wrong. Heh, this is reminds me of an event going on in real life right now. One of my friend's ex-roomates whom he hates to death right now is a major drug dealer and does all kinds of bad crap. I mean heck, the guy even sluts himself on the streets. He had this one guy dealing and whoring himself as well as being involved with indenity theft so the guy could make money for him (yeah, they were bi), and guess who ended up dead last week? The guy my friend's roomate was basically pimping. The cops are investigating everything and while they've heard all the things he's done in the past from many people, there really isn't much that can be done since they didn't catch him in the act of doing anything. They all hate his guts, even the cops, but there's nothing they can do. So what they're basically gonna do is try and catch him in the act, set up an operation, or something so that they can bust the guy.

So yeah, back to you, heh, you basically need to somehow get him to admit everything again to you in private while a GM is watching, or somehow set him up, heh. That, or just get a sorcerer that can ward him and cast the fleas curse so that he drops his gear and then you can trade gear. That's what I used to normally do when gear was stolen from me or someone else.

>>Along the same lines, Tsin/Zurrainn borrowed 3M in coins from me almost a year ago - back before I knew what a liar and a cheat he was - back before I knew how he took advantage of the kindness of others.
Yeah, I know how it feels. That damn prick Morandas owes me 7 million coins from 2 years ago. Hmm, what would the interest be on that? Hehe.

- Pudgee reg

06:25 PMHah... Andiago will only loan people to whom trust him, and vice versa. Even then, He will only loan coins if the person lets him play with a interesting toy

Andiago reg

07:06 PMGrrr...! I had posted my story that was similar to the incident discussed here, but I somehow managed to delete the whole darn thing!

Anyway, what I think is confusing how similar incidents are handled completely different. I don't want to repeat the whole story, but basically, someone I knew told me he was leaving and kept offering me his items. I refused to accept anything and left the area. He followed, declared he was leaving, dropped his weapon and left. I picked up the weapon and placed it in my locker for safekeeping. I didn't want the darn weapon, I was just holding the thing until my friend regained his sanity.

The next night, my friend was still upset, and I was doing my best to ignore him. The next thing I knew I was poofed up into that dreaded Lounge and the GM was asking me why my friend's weapon was in my locker. I explained that he had dropped it and left, I picked it up and placed it in my locker for safekeeping. The GM instructed me to go to my locker and return the weapon. I returned the weapon, and told my friend that if he ever dropped anything in my presence again, I would leave it on the ground.

The stories are different, but the situations are very similar. Summir dropped her shield, someone picked it up, and staff will not force him to return it. In my case, someone dropped his weapon and left, I picked it up, staff searched my locker and waited until I returned it. I was planning on returning the weapon when my friend had calmed down, so returning the weapon didn't bother me. Having my locker searched and being ORDERED to return it was a bit surprising.

Summer

[This message has been edited by Summerlyn (edited 04-11-2002).] reg

09:27 PM

quote:
Originally posted by CrystalTears:
I'm also going to side with someone who said earlier... you're such a hardcore anti-GM person, and yet you went to them for their support? Why? Because you had a David Whatley quote? I don't understand that part at all.

Actually i went to the GM's originally right after the incident happened. I was pretty distraught and never in my wildest dreams would have thought there would be a question about getting my shield returned. So basically in some ways i screwed myself. The reason edge was stating that he wanted to use area affect spells is because Zurrainn is 15-17 trains older then we are, has slaves that keep him spelled to the core and runs like hell when he sees us..only after taunting us with a nice wave as he passes through. But i will say that from now on we are leaving the GM's out of this and taking it completely CvC, i wish i would have been thinking more clearly in the beginning.

Summir
reg

11:07 PMYou find out why your friend suddenly had a change of heart and wanted his weapon back, Summerlyn? Seems almost like a set up to me. reg

11:34 PMI think he was in need of some attention. He didn't get it by declaring he was leaving, so the next night he tried again using different tactics. I thought it would be best if I just avoided him completely until he settled down a bit. I probably wasn't as patient as I could have been... I truly hate dealing with drama!

Summer

reg

02:06 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Summerlyn:

The stories are different, but the situations are very similar. Summir dropped her shield, someone picked it up, and staff will not force him to return it. In my case, someone dropped his weapon and left, I picked it up, staff searched my locker and waited until I returned it. I was planning on returning the weapon when my friend had calmed down, so returning the weapon didn't bother me. Having my locker searched and being ORDERED to return it was a bit surprising.
Summer
[This message has been edited by Summerlyn (edited 04-11-2002).]

Another fine display of consistency on the part of Simutronics.

Are there any Simutronics staff/employees around who care to explain this? Why is it that when some banana on a pity trip goes crying to Summerlyn about leaving and drops his weapon on the ground WILLINGLY, Summerlyn gets her locker searched a little while later, yet when Summir UNWILLINGLY loses her sheild, and Tsin/Zurrain says he's going to help her find it, picks it up and keeps it for himself (and the shield in question IS registered to Summir and the situation is reported to Simu staff immediately) that NOTHING is done? I really would like an answer on this one because it DOES look like some kind of favortism otherwise.

[This message has been edited by Weedmage Princess (edited 04-12-2002).] reg

03:05 PMYou know. People keep telling me if Summir wasn't with me. The shield would have been returned by the staff already. I kinda beleive that myself.

edge reg

05:48 PM

quote:
Originally posted by edge:
You know. People keep telling me if Summir wasn't with me. The shield would have been returned by the staff already. I kinda beleive that myself.
edge

Well now Edge that would be a display of favortism, only helping those they wish instead of assisting ALL customers who are in need of assistance--and we *KNOW* Simutronics doesn't play favorites.

I am still awaiting an explanation from Simu staff--I know they read these boards quite frequently, and respond to topics they only wish to, therefore I do believe it would be safe for all to assume that the Simutronics staff DOES play favorites if they purposely DO NOT address this issue, although they'd swear on a stack of bibles (or whatever artifact they'd deem worthy) that they don't. So...Andraste, Khaladon, any others who I know read..what's the deal?

...the ever patient Weedmage Princess. reg

07:14 PMI'm guessing they respond just about as quickly (and officially) as they did about the New York Times artical about Ciston's player selling items and characters for cash and making $100,000 profit off data that belongs to Simutronics.

Oh wait - they never DID respond to that, did they?

Heh - keep waiting kids.

R
reg

08:11 PMSo it's either favortism, or it's because he's an HMC and they don't go out of their way to help people who are always part of problems.

------------------
Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things. reg

08:37 PMJust because he might be a HMC doesn't mean he doesn't deserve the same amount of service any other person would receive in a situation where he needs help. reg

08:44 PMAgreed with Zanagan, but in the case of Simu helping, Edge has nothing to do with that..the real Q: here is SUMMIR an HMC? And I could be wrong, but I do not think she is. SUMMIR'S shield was lost, SUMMIR had it registered to her, Tsin/Zurrain told SUMMIR he'd help her find it and return it to her, and when he made it known that he did have it and didn't return it to her, SUMMIR reported, so they should have responded to SUMMIR'S request. The status of Edge's account is irrelevant.

By the way, Simu staff folks....still waiting for a "reasonable and logical" explanation for this seemingly blatant display of favortism.

Maybe Mr. Whatley cares to answer?
reg

09:21 PMFeel da love babiiieeeee!

<chuckle> I'm sorry. I can't help but laugh.

Jael said something a few pages back that made more sense than anything I've seen.

If there's anyone who knows how to get rid of people in the game, its me. And Jael hit it right on the head. Kill him. Keep killin him. Make him go to sleep and wake up dead. He'll get tired of seeing, "You are very dead." and leave.

Idiots like that will leave when the game no longer is worth the quarter they pay. If he's DEAD. He isn't doing what he wants. He'll leave eventually. He'll sell out to some other idiot and go bug the people in Inferno. Which in that case would really suck to be him because he would get banned inside a month.

I'm suprised he's still her eto be honest. He must be especially stupid. Does he realize that he has next to no friends at all? Does he realize he's power hunting himself into extinction? That once he's done..All he'll be able to do is die a bunch at the hands of all the people he's pissed off because he has nowhere to run or hide?

Jeez.. seems he's gonna have to smack the brick wall with his nose before he realizes he is boxed in.

~Q

------------------
Here endeth the lesson... reg

06:41 AMHey, I'm all for his being killed over and over again until he either A) returns the shield or B) leaves. Like you said, who wants a person like him playing anyway? Who? Obviously Simutronics--and why do I say that? Because they A)haven't gotten rid of him themselves KNOWING that this guy is a "repeat offender" in the sense that he's pulled stunts like this multiple times in the past, and B) If Edge or Summir kills him, THEY will get in trouble..and clearly anyone else too seeing as they're going to call it "unwarranted PvP." At the end of the day, this particular incident, and many incidents are the fault of Simutronics' policy just as much as the person doing the act because they clearly SUPPORT this "Abuse the mechanics of the game as much as you want, make our paying customers miserable and if they attack you or kill you, as long as you didn't say the words "I agree to a duel" or "I am giving you permission to attack me" you can REPORT them and THEY will get pulled.

I personally am rather annoyed at this situation because it seems as if there is NOTHING to protect or help the person who is wronged. Their only chance is either A) Getting a decent GM and that's taking a gamble or B) Knowing the right person and having a little pull. Policy is nothing but a verbose means of Simutronics covering their own behinds, which is okay, but it has NOTHING in the better interest of the customer, which is not right.

This is something that should raise the eyebrows of quite a few people--It bothers me not only because Edge and Summir are my buddies, but also because it kind of shows what might be in store for the rest of us... people like me, who don't know any GMs or GHs, don't have any pull, and doesn't cause any problems. My character doesn't steal or cause problems, she is known by some but not everyone--I just play the game and try to have fun..so what happens to me if I find myself in a situation where I need help? I'm pretty much screwed.

I'm still waiting for that response to my previous post by a staff member. I'd actually love to be proven wrong, but I doubt I will and like Roberta said, I'll be waiting a long time.

Simutronics--DONT ASK US FOR NOTHING! reg

07:06 AMWelp. I am not HMC. I may scream and yell on the boards. But I don't get into any trouble ingame anymore. Been a year since my last banning or warning of any kind.

As for Summir. She has 0 warnings.

Now that is out of the way.

Thanks for your support Princess and I loved your post.

Amazing how so many people think it's ok to scam and steal. That you shouldn't fight for something you feel is wrong.

edge

reg

07:22 AMI think she basically summed it all up. Thank you for the support princess. I've not been in any trouble, other then soap once or twice {whistles} if that is considered high maintaince then i'm sure there's a very long list. I'm done with GM's and feedback on this matter. I had never had a bad experience with simutronics so could never really have an opinion on their customer service before this. I won't bash them it was a sticky situation on their side of things, but i will be another one of those stories where no help was recieved when it should have been given.

Summir reg

09:59 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Weedmage Princess:
I'm still waiting for that response to my previous post by a staff member

Why exactly would they post their personal opinion on this topic, when it’s been shown in this thread all it will do is lead to name dropping?

quote:
Originally posted by Edge:
Amazing how so many people think it's ok to scam and steal.

You know, it getting old real quick the crass way you attempt to demonize your fellow posters every time they disagree with you. Are you of the belief that just because someone has a differing opinion it means they should be forced to suffer through your insults?

I for one, feel if you repeatedly kill someone for any reason, that is harassment. Yet surprisingly enough, I do not condone stealing in game or out. I can also see a difference between PvP and CvC, and as such I will never condone PvP regardless of how righteous the cause. Yet I still do not sanction scamming.

When it comes down to it, I feel there are very few people who believe what Zurrain did was acceptable in any way shape or form. Yet Summir still bears her portion of the blame for this predicament and that limits what actions are permissible for you to take in resolving this situation.

And this opinion neither makes me immoral nor unsympathetic to Summir’s plight.
reg

10:13 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Ellarze:

Why exactly would they post their personal opinion on this topic, when it’s been shown in this thread all it will do is lead to name dropping?

Well you see I didn't ask for a Simu-staff/employee to give us their *personal* opinions, per se, I asked them to address THIS issue:

quote:
Originally posted by Summerlyn:

basically, someone I knew told me he was leaving and kept offering me his items. I refused to accept anything and left the area. He followed, declared he was leaving, dropped his weapon and left. I picked up the weapon and placed it in my locker for safekeeping. I didn't want the darn weapon, I was just holding the thing until my friend regained his sanity.
The next night, my friend was still upset, and I was doing my best to ignore him. The next thing I knew I was poofed up into that dreaded Lounge and the GM was asking me why my friend's weapon was in my locker. I explained that he had dropped it and left, I picked it up and placed it in my locker for safekeeping. The GM instructed me to go to my locker and return the weapon. I returned the weapon, and told my friend that if he ever dropped anything in my presence again, I would leave it on the ground.

and Summir's issue, with her shield being lost UNWILLINGLY--a KNOWN ITEM THIEF/TROUBLEMAKER saying he'd help her find it then keeping it for himself and bragging to people about it, and they saying they can not do anything about it. I want to know why it is okay for them to help that guy in Summerlyn's situation but not help Summir in her situation? COMMON SENSE tells anyone that SUMMIR'S situation warrants more GM intervention than SUMMERLYN'S, yet...who got the help and who got ignored? Why?

It has nothing to do with name dropping, nothing to do with whether they hate or love Summir, Edge or anyone else, their personal feelings are irrelevant. It has to do with why they didn't help a paying customer when they were entitled to it. Or if they weren't entitled to it, why did another customer get special treatment? It's their policy of customer service I'm concerned about--and obviously mum's the word on that from the Simutronics staff currently.

reg

10:22 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Weedmage Princess:
Well you see I didn't ask for a Simu-staff/employee to give us their *personal* opinions, per se, I asked them to address THIS issue:

Then address it in the proper forum, either on the “Official” boards or feedback. Because all you will get here is their personal opinion.

Personally I would enjoy hearing the answers to the questions you have posed, but I also realize that this forum is not the place where you will find those answers.
reg

11:07 AMTsin/Zurrainn doesn't have to pay quarters to play, he doesn't own his own character, unless someone finally took pity on him and GAVE him one, which, you can never really trust what he says.

Access to Tsin was taken away awhile ago, but recently given back, most likely because he cried and whined and threatened to kill himself over GS again.

Go bubba, yay you, you're pathetic.

~=[ Jael Baerd ]=~ reg

11:34 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Ellarze:
Then address it in the proper forum, either on the “Official” boards or feedback. Because all you will get here is their personal opinion.

For my own reasons which I'm not even going to get into because that will open up yet another can of worms, I don't use the Official boards--I rarely read them--and writing Simutronics..HAH! I don't know about you, but from my own personal experiences, my great grandchildren would have to read their response to me by the time they do decide to respond.

They read these boards often and they post comments here--why should I not ask here? Is this board not GOOD enough for them to address such an issue?
reg

01:40 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Zanagodly:
Just because he might be a HMC doesn't mean he doesn't deserve the same amount of service any other person would receive in a situation where he needs help.

I agree. A customer is a customer, we pay the freaking bills. reg

01:42 PMWe need an SLA from Simu on stuff we think they should be doing because we're the customer. reg

02:01 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Dustin Brookthorn:
I agree. A customer is a customer, we pay the freaking bills.

This is not speaking about Edge or Zurrain in particular but HMC in general.

I disagree that HMC customers deserve as much assistance as others. If someone is tagged as HMC they are there for a reason.

I would much rather the staff spend their time bettering the game for the good of the many than wasting valuable resources on someone who has shown such an inclination to create trouble for himself and others to the degree that they are actually labeled HMC.

Its pretty simple to not be so labeled and if you have been, you would be sorely pressed to convince me that such a decision was in error as it is not a single transgresion that can bring this into being but an ongoing pattern of behavior.

Want to be the jerk and flip off GM's and be the "bad boy" flouting authority?

Go for it.

Just don't whine when consequences come into play. reg

03:44 PMYou're right, Skirmisher--if you want to behave like a jerk, don't be surprised when you're treated like one. Wouldn't you say the same should hold true in ALL instances though? Like for example--someone having a bounty on their head for being manipulative and scheming and stealing REPEATEDLY? Or is it only the case when certain people are involved? reg

07:02 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Weedmage Princess:
They read these boards often and they post comments here--why should I not ask here? Is this board not GOOD enough for them to address such an issue?

It has nothing to do with this site being “GOOD” enough (Buckwheat has done a stupendous job on this site), it has to do with the proper place and time to address official business. This is an unofficial site, where players can come to state their opinion. Which means any Simutronics staff who are reading or posting on this site are doing so in an unofficial capacity. Demanding they answer official questions or attempting to use the words they post to over-rule an in-game decision, will most likely only serve in halting their correspondence in this forum.

When he first started posting on this site, Bardon went so far as to say…

quote:
Originally posted by Bardon:
“I, obviously, can't comment on official things. But I can interject some perspective now and then. Seems a useful endevor.”

I’m not sure it can be stated more clearly than that.

reg

08:54 PMWhile I do understand what you're trying to say, I have to disagree with your thinking it's exactly the same. Of course information like "the approximate time of release for breakage" and "the next new spells to be implemented" can not be divulged here, however GMs in the past HAVE commented HERE about issues with policy, what it states, favortism and the like, and this particular issue does fall under the category, so I do not see why this could not be addressed here. reg

09:28 PMThey aren't going to address the specific issue because it involves specific people and specific GM decisions which are confidential according to their NDA. They're not going to discuss it here or on the official boards.

I mean - what would happen if the GM in charge pasted a list of all the infractions Edge has committed, proving that he's actually not only on the HMC list, but is at the top of it? Do you really think Simu would intentionally humiliate a paying customer like that?

(Edge, I am SURE you're not on the HMC list if you say you're not, I just picked you in this example. Summersnuggle's next, I promise )

What if it turned out Summer was actually some unwitting pawn in a huge conspiracy, and their staff decided to blow it open and make her look like the fool that she is? How do you think she'd feel being turned into a laughing stock by the people she pays for her hobby?

No, best that Simu keep private matters private and talk to the people via e-mail or on the phone.

R
reg

09:50 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Weedmage Princess:
They read these boards often and they post comments here--why should I not ask here? Is this board not GOOD enough for them to address such an issue?

Simply no its not.

Buckwheet reg

12:59 AMI can understand Simutronics staff not discussing specific cases, or confidential matters. However, I do wish there was an option for parties involved in "high profile" cases to sign a release that would allow a player's history, and all details about the incident to be released. Those cases get discussed and debated in/out of the game already, so why not have all the facts out there, if the parties involved agree to full disclosure?

I think the majority of the staff tries to do the best that they can. But, I just can't sit on my hands and be quiet when I see comments like "favoritism doesn't exist", "GMs never release confidential information about customers to their friends", "a player with a spotless record will not get the maximum lock-out on a first offense", "lock-outs are never approved by one staff member. Decisions are reviewed by all of the Senior CE GameMasters, and the Product Manager", and the recent statement... "staff will not get involved in this situation to retrieve the shield because the mechanics of the game that enabled the other party to obtain them were working properly, so the other party did not violate policy in their acquiring of the shield, in addition to, their refusal to return the shield is not a violation of policy." When I know for a fact those statements just aren't true.

Summer

[This message has been edited by Summerlyn (edited 04-14-2002).] reg

01:25 AMWhile I agree in principle that signing a release of full disclosure would be nice, I fail to grasp what in the world would convince someone whom is completely in the wrong to sign such a release? Especially when a lack of information would serve them far better. At which point, failing to sign the release would basically amount to an admission of guilt. So perhaps that is the reason a mechanism such as that is not in place. But once again, it would be nice to get the true facts on certain cases, rather than “he said, she said”. reg

02:09 AMIt has been discussed here before, and I thought the "People's Court" suggestion was very good. Involved parties would have the option of having their case heard by a court of peers. In a case like Summir's shield, she would have a set time to present her side, the person that picked up the shield would present his side, and the decision of the court would be final. The incident where the player placed her new weapon in the cloak on the floor would be another good case for the court. Notorious thieves that are caught could be brought to court and if found guilty, ordered to pay restitution. In certain cases, the prosecution could be a GM representing Simutronics side (serious offenses, like account hacking, or anything that doesn't take place inside the game wouldn't have the option of a court hearing).

At my work, I organize monthly appeal meetings where a board of peers hears appeals in regards to citations. The board decides if the citation should be voided, or if it stands. The officers that issue the citations aren't even present. This board of peers is tougher and hangs 'em higher than any official ever would! The violator feels better because they had the opportunity to present their side to a neutral board that has no investment, or interest in the outcome.

Summer reg

02:57 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Summerlyn:
It has been discussed here before, and I thought the "People's Court" suggestion was very good. Involved parties would have the option of having their case heard by a court of peers. In a case like Summir's shield, she would have a set time to present her side, the person that picked up the shield would present his side, and the decision of the court would be final. The incident where the player placed her new weapon in the cloak on the floor would be another good case for the court. Notorious thieves that are caught could be brought to court and if found guilty, ordered to pay restitution. In certain cases, the prosecution could be a GM representing Simutronics side (serious offenses, like account hacking, or anything that doesn't take place inside the game wouldn't have the option of a court hearing).
At my work, I organize monthly appeal meetings where a board of peers hears appeals in regards to citations. The board decides if the citation should be voided, or if it stands. The officers that issue the citations aren't even present. This board of peers is tougher and hangs 'em higher than any official ever would! The violator feels better because they had the opportunity to present their side to a neutral board that has no investment, or interest in the outcome.
Summer

The basic problem with a "jury of your peers" is that unless those peers are drafted, sometimes unwillingly, into the job there can be as much corruption and lack of fairness as in any dictatorial system. If the people judging cases are volunteers or seek out the positions, then they are more likely to have hidden agendas, sub-texts and bias. If you draw your jury from a pool of people who are required to appear for the duty then you have a better chance at unbiased jurors. That is why jury duty is an obligation rather than a voluntary effort in our judicial system.
So how would Simutronics find a pool of unbiased jurors? Wouldn't most volunteers for the job have agendas? Those who hated Simutronics or those who hated all thieves, or any number of other reasons? And if Simutronics tried a system like we have in reality in the U.S., with obligated jury duty, the uproar would be tremendous.
It's a great idea, but it isn't practical in the Gemstone world.

[This message has been edited by OldTimeGS (edited 04-14-2002).] reg

03:44 AMIt would have to be voluntary and have requirements, at least titled-age, clean record for the past 12 months, etc. On court night, all eligible jurors would meet and a spinner would select the 12 to hear the cases for that night. If there were 10 cases pending, only 5 cases would be heard, and the 5 cases selected for that night would be random as well. With the random selections, what would be the odds that the 12 people selected would all hate thieves, or love/hate Simutronics, or were all friends of the accused?

I agree it would take some work, but consider the time GMs already spend on these incidents. Setting up a court system couldn't be anymore time consuming. Plus, it would take away from staff being the "bad guys" all the time. People could come here and complain about the lousy jury that heard their case!

Summer reg

05:43 AMMaybe they wouldn't post all the "specifics" as in, which GM, what the history of each person involved is, so on and so forth...but something that addresses the issue, even as general as:

"Our policy at Simutronics does not allow staff intervention in things that occur through normal game mechanics, i.e, someone dropping their shield on the ground then losing it be it willingly or unwillingly--if such a situation occurred where Simutronics staff was involved in the retrieval of an item lost by normal game mechanics, the matter will be investigated."

Atleast SOMETHING to let us know what the deal is--as opposed to not saying anything. I disagree strongly with anyone who doesn't believe we are entitled to atleast THAT much--a clarification.

[This message has been edited by Weedmage Princess (edited 04-14-2002).] reg

11:36 AMThe last time someone came here and offered their opinion of the situation, it was used as the excuse to counter the problem, even after they were told they were not speaking in an official capacity.

This isn't an official board, so they don't have to answer in an official matter. If they want to and do, that's their own decision to do so. But saying they have to and say they're being silent because they refuse to answer is not realistic either. They hardly respond as it is.

I surely wouldn't want to get involved at this point if I were them either. reg

04:38 PM<<This isn't an official board, so they don't have to answer in an official matter. If they want to and do, that's their own decision to do so. But saying they have to and say they're being silent because they refuse to answer is not realistic either. They hardly respond as it is.>>

They took the complaint section out of the official boards and remove all posts that complain about favoritism and abuse. Here at least you can challenge the person by name when you have a problem.

You notice the trend of people saying they don't even bother posting or reading the official boards anymore? I do.

edge

reg

05:03 PMWhat's really unnerving--is that people have gotten so used to the shoddy treatment and underhanded things that go on, that they don't think they deserve better treatment from a company they PAY for their services.

I'm not David Whatley, I don't have my own business (and personally I don't know if I want the headaches that come along with owning your own business) but I would atleast think (and I know if I was a business owner, I'd do this) that if my company was being accused of something crooked, I'd try to play damage control when I could..even if I was going to be very general about it.

I still don't get what the big deal about saying on these boards whether or not GM intervention is allowed to help retrieve a lost item. Actually--I take that back, I do. It's a big deal because despite what the overall "rule" is, you have your GMs who do whatever the heck they want to as well. And that's a damn shame actually because I will say there are a couple of GMs I know of (and maybe a few more I don't know of personally) who do a good job.

Simutronics--we plead the fifth. reg

09:04 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Weedmage Princess:
What's really unnerving--is that people have gotten so used to the shoddy treatment and underhanded things that go on, that they don't think they deserve better treatment from a company they PAY for their services.

Perhaps the problem lies in certain player’s bizarre sense of entitlement, rather than poor customer service. The belief that because I pay for a service, I can to whatever I damn well please, regardless of the consequences. All the while expecting that my every whim must be catered to without delay. Going out and treating the employees with complete contempt, then bemoaning the fact that I receive only the bare minimum in assistance.

Then paying a visit to the “official boards” to post only half of a story in trashing a GM by name, knowing they can not reply in kind. Only to wonder why posts are censured. Or posting questions for which an answer would force the employee to openly violate the NDA they signed, and then claim their silence is proof of their culpability.

The people – We can be wrong, we pay money.

So do I think that all of Gemstone’s problems are player based? No…somehow I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle of the two scenarios presented. We are just allowed to trash them mercilessly, while they are forced to remain silent.

reg

10:38 PMI totally agree edge you can't even talk on the offical boards they will just remove your post instantly theres not even a hint of free speech. Hell China let in a MC,Ds them chinamen love them bigmacs you know? That right there shows China is more people friendly then simutronics free speech is a far away nightmare to them lol. reg

11:38 PMI don't think it is too much to ask of a company to be treated fairly, and I don't think it's a wrongful sense of entitlement to expect that.

If you look at the two examples presented, Summer's friend willfully dropped the shield, and the man EXPECTED her to pick it up and keep it. In Summir's case, she unwillingly dropped the shield, and DID NOT EXPECT him to pick it up and keep it.

Summir is presented with an explanation that game mechanics were working, therefore Simu won't help her. Yet in Summer's case, those same game mechanics were working peachy keen and yet she was told return the shield.

It's like you ordered a coke at restaurant, and got a leaky cup. The guy next to you also got a coke but he squished his cup, so they handed him a new cup. So you ask for a new cup but instead, they tell you suck it up and deal with it, this cup has sides and a bottom, and it was full when we handed it to you, should be working just fine.

Aerienne

PS Manodith, what the hell does the McDonald's in China have to do with freedom of speech?? And the term is Chinese. Chinaman went out with the 50s. reg

11:57 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Aerienne:
If you look at the two examples presented, Summer's friend willfully dropped the shield, and the man EXPECTED her to pick it up and keep it. In Summir's case, she unwillingly dropped the shield, and DID NOT EXPECT him to pick it up and keep it.
Summir is presented with an explanation that game mechanics were working, therefore Simu won't help her. Yet in Summer's case, those same game mechanics were working peachy keen and yet she was told return the shield.

This assessment of the two situations is completely incorrect, based upon the previous posts on this subject.

In Summer’s case, a person dropped an item (still not sure why, but it really doesn’t matter<grin> ), she picked up the item and placed it in her locker, a GM requested she get it from her locker and return it, she agreed.

While in Summir’s case, she lost her shield due to fear, a scumbag pretending to help her found it, a GM asked him to return the shield, he declined.

The exact same assistance was offered in both cases, however, in Summir’s case the person refused to cooperate. Would Summer have been forced to return the shield had she refused? I don’t know, nor does anyone else. But the exact same service was given in each case, how is that unfair?

reg

03:00 AMI think the difference is that I wasn't asked, or given the choice to return the weapon. I was zapped into the Lounge, told that the GM saw the weapon in my locker and that I had to return it, and then poofed to my locker from the Lounge, and back again. All this happened even after my friend had told the GM that he had been trying to give me his weapon numerous times and I refused to accept it. He admitted that he followed me after I left the Tower, dropped the weapon on the ground and left for the night.

What is confusing is that the GM's actions that night were clearly opposite of what Summir was told in the letter from feedback...

"Now, to the matter of retrieving the shield, staff will not get involved in this situation to retrieve the shield because the mechanics of the game that enabled the other party to obtain them were working properly, so the other party did not violate policy in their acquiring of the shield.."

In my case, staff DID get involved even though the mechanics that enabled me to obtain the weapon were working properly and I didn't violate any policy in acquiring the weapon.

My guess is that it comes down to the GMs involved in the incidents. In my case, I wasn't given a choice to return the property. It appears in Summir's case, the man that had her shield was given an option.

Summer

[This message has been edited by Summerlyn (edited 04-15-2002).] reg

10:33 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Summerlyn:
I think the difference is that I wasn't asked, or given the choice to return the weapon.

So exactly how did the GM act and what did the GM say when addressing Zurrain about returning the shield? Since no one other than the GM and Zurrain himself can answer that, how can you be so sure there was a difference? To be honest, unless the GM themselves took the item from your locker, you were given a choice. You just had enough integrity not to dispute the ownership of the weapon, while Zurrain apparently does not.

The point being, people are claiming that Simutronics is not treating their customers fairly using this case as an example, when there is no evidence to suggest such a notion.
reg

11:24 AMThe difference is my friend has his weapon, Summir doesn't have her shield. And I don't think the issue is one of fairness, as it is consistency. Other than posting that Summir and Summer are different characters, I didn't respond in this thread until I read the letter from Feedback and saw what was stated wasn't exactly true.

Similar cases seem to be handled differently, depending on the GM handling the incident, and the parties involved. Follow policy in all cases, and there would be fewer inconsistencies.

Summer

[This message has been edited by Summerlyn (edited 04-15-2002).] reg

01:32 PMEllarze, I'll restate what I've been saying all along because I think somewhere along the lines the wires got crossed and you're not getting the jist of my beef with this situation.

Summir--who lost her shield due to a spell (and Tsin being a dirtbag), was told that GM intervention was not allowed in an effort to help retrieve her shield because she initially lost it due to normal game mechanics. A bit bogus, but if that's the policy, then so be it--it can (and has to be) accepted.

Summerlyn's friend, who originally WANTED Summerlyn to HAVE HIS SHIELD...DROPPED HIS SHIELD WILLINGLY in an attempt to FORCE HER TO TAKE IT--had a GM not only intervene in the situation but go as far as to PULL SUMMERLYN INTO A CONSULTATION LOUNGE AND RETURN THE SHIELD. He too, lost his shield to normal game mechanics.

WHY, WHY, WHY is GM intervention not allowed when it's SUMMIR and she can not get her shield returned to her when she unwillingly lost it to game mechanics (and thievery by a known offender) yet SUMMERLYN got dragged off to a lounge and ordered to return a shield (that you can say was technically GIVEN to her) which was lost by those same NORMAL game mechanics?

They are saying that it's policy for an item not to be retrieved under those instances--yet here is a story of a person who despite their policy, got their item retrieved by a GM--and the situation wasn't a special one. So, as a PAYING CUSTOMER, I am saying I have a right to know why is it that policy seems to "bend" a little for Summerlyn's friend, but not for Summir, or me for that matter, or you, or anyone else? And I'm sorry but we all have a right to have that question answered by Simutronics. I pay Simutronics every month just like this person does, why are they entitled to perks when no one else is.

I think I made it relatively clear this time, and if you still say we have no right to have that answered, well then we'll just have to agree to disagree and I truly fail to see any sense of logic in your method of thinking--unless you're one of the people like Summerlyn's buddy who is entitled to those "special little perks."

[This message has been edited by Weedmage Princess (edited 04-15-2002).] reg

02:02 PMWeedmage Princess,

I think you may not have read this post (NOTE: this post was directed to Edge in reference to the shield Summir had lost):

quote:
Originally posted by Bardon:

The GMs know who has it. As I understand it, they've even spoken with the individual on your behalf (but unbeknownst to you)

Because it clearly states that the same intervention was given for Summir as Summer received. The difference is not that a GM asked to have the item returned (because in BOTH situation that is what happened), it is that Zurrain refused to return it. Now was Zurrain pulled into the consultation lounge? Only he and the GM knows for certain, but he was asked to return the shield. Would Summer have been punished had she not returned the item? We will never know, because she had enough integrity to return it. But the fact remains that both parties were spoken to by a GM and asked to return the items.

So I am still failing to see any inconsistency in how both instances were dealt with by the GMs (and believe me I am trying to see your side of the story).

reg

02:28 PM<<a GM asked to have the item returned (because in BOTH situation that is what happened),>>

WRONG! I'm not sure how many ways I can say it, but I wasn't ASKED, or REQUESTED to return the weapon. I was ORDERED to return it and poofed to my locker to get it. I understand your point, Ellarze, and would agree to it, if the GM gave me a choice, or said something like, "Summerlyn, I recognize that you obtained the weapon legally, and according to our policy are entitled to keep it. However, Sam is requesting the weapon back and it would be nice if you would return it to him". At that point, the choice would be mine to make. I KNOW I wasn't given a choice, and it appears that the man that has Summir's shield WAS.

Summer

reg

03:11 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Ellarze:
The difference is not that a GM asked to have the item returned (because in BOTH situation that is what happened), it is that Zurrain refused to return it. Now was Zurrain pulled into the consultation lounge? Only he and the GM knows for certain, but he was asked to return the shield. Would Summer have been punished had she not returned the item? We will never know, because she had enough integrity to return it. But the fact remains that both parties were spoken to by a GM and asked to return the items.

No Ellarze, re-read Summerlyn's post--she wasn't asked, she was ORDERED (which she said atleast three times to correct you) to return the shield, pulled into the lounge "HEY YOU SUMMERLYN, NO IF, ANDS, OR BUTS, GIVE UP THE SHIELD!" not "Summerlyn, it's entirely up to you, but I'd really appreciate it if you'd return the shield to Lord Loserlookingforpity." (I'm sure not the exact words used, but you get the point--I hope.)

If Summerlyn was given a choice, maybe she would have said "No, I like this shield, it's better than mine, he gave it to me, he can't have it back, nya-nya" or maybe she would have just been the better person and returned it. (I'm guessing the latter Summerlyn so sssh )but either way, she wasn't given a choice like you're saying Tsin/Zurrain was, she was ordered.

So again, the Q: stands--why wasn't Tsin/Zurrain ordered to do the same, why was he merely "asked" if even that?

reg

03:26 PMI have read Summer’s post several times, and what it says, is that she was brought to the consultation room, asked/ordered to return the weapon, the transported to her locker to get the item.

What I am saying is that there is no proof that:

a) The same situation did not happen with Zurrain, and he simply said “No, I will not return it”. And since he had not violated any rule or abused any game mechanics, the GMs could not press the matter any further.

Or

b) That Summer would have suffered any repercussions had she refused to remove the item form her locker and decided not to return the item.

To attempt to state otherwise is pure speculation and I feel it is in poor taste to drag Simutronics through the mud based upon speculation.
reg

03:44 PMIf a GM "ordered" Tsin/Zurrain to return the shield in the same fashion Summerlyn was "ordered" to return the shield, then one would have to think he would have done so, as failing to comply with an "order" of a GM DOES result in some type of disciplinary action, be it a warning, ban period or lockout, and considering Tsin/Zurrain's record, I sincerely doubt he'd risk a warning. In your last post you used the terminology "asked/ordered" which seems like you are implying Summerlyn isn't clear if she was ASKED or ORDERED to return the shield when she has gone out of her way to stress that she was ORDERED (not just asked) to return the shield, and I'd like to think that Summerlyn is able to differenciate between being "asked" to do something and being "ordered" to do something.

While it's true that it is in poor taste to tarnish the reputation of anyone/thing on mere speculation without some kind of evidence, such isn't the case with Simutronics. Their lack of consistency has been a major concern for a long time now, as well as a lot of underhanded things that go on...Fact is that even a few of "their own" are a bit perturbed by it so this "dragging Simutronics through the mud" as you word it is in actuality nothing more than Simutronics *ONCE AGAIN* displaying their short comings in the consistency department, and any bashing in this respect is nothing but well deserved.

[This message has been edited by Weedmage Princess (edited 04-15-2002).] reg

04:43 PMWell it certainly appears as if we will have to settle with our understanding that we will continue to disagree with each other on this topic.

But I will say once last thing…every time someone posts how they got in trouble not based upon the facts of a situation, but upon their past actions, this place goes into an uproar over GM abuse of power. Well there is no difference between that and comments like this:

quote:
Originally posted by Weedmage Princess:
While it's true that it is in poor taste to tarnish the reputation of anyone/thing on mere speculation without some kind of evidence, such isn't the case with Simutronics. Their lack of consistency has been a major concern for a long time now, as well as a lot of underhanded things that go on...Fact is that even a few of "their own" are a bit perturbed by it so this "dragging Simutronics through the mud" as you word it is in actuality nothing more than Simutronics *ONCE AGAIN* displaying their short comings in the consistency department, and any bashing in this respect is nothing but well deserved.

But I don’t expect you to agree with that position either.
reg

04:54 PMTalk about trying to do damage control for Simutronics. Would think you are getting paid or getting perks how you are trying to twist everyones words around in these situations. Getting dizzy I am.

edge reg

04:55 PMI don't see how you can make that comment when it is a known fact that Simutronics has a problem with consistency. GMs do not follow a "set guideline of rules." If they did then A) Most people who play the game (including some staff members themselves) wouldn't have that argument and B) Summir would probably have her shield--or that guy in Summerlyn's situation wouldn't have been able to have a GM order Summerlyn to return the shield.

Unless you do not believe that Simutronics has a problem with being consistent as far as policy, rules and guidelines go, (in which case you'd be the laughing stock of just about anyone who plays the game) you just do not seem to want to recognize the facts of the matter with Simutronics. It's one thing to insult just on speculation,(not what I'm doing) it's another thing to call a spade a spade, Ellarze, and *that's* what I'm doing...pointing out yet another Simutronics inconsistency--in which there are many--and that is not a speculation, that is a FACT.

[This message has been edited by Weedmage Princess (edited 04-15-2002).] reg

09:22 PMThat’s right Edge… I disagree with your venomous attitude towards Simutronics, I MUST be on their payroll. I won’t use speculation and assumptions to fabricate reasons to begin bashing them, someone must have cut me a check. Yup, once I read that news item offering a free alteration for anyone who would come to the Player’s Corner and defend Simutronics, I signed right up (they even promised to make the item pocketed if I found a way to make you post the word “kookie” in a reply, so how about helping me out).

And Princess …you are confusing the word “fact” with the word “opinion”. It is your opinion that “Simutronics has a problem with consistency”. While I share that opinion in quite a number of cases (unfortunately not this one), it is still just my opinion (wait a minute, did I just utter a negative statement against Simutronics? There goes my bonus <chuckle> ).
reg

02:02 AMNo Comment.

Everyone happy now? reg

06:03 AMOfficialGMpost=retard reg

03:56 PMHmm--I see a brief revisit to first grade is in order.

FACT: (noun) Something having real, demonstrable existence; something done.

OPINION: (noun) A belief or conclusion, not substantiated by proof.

Now that we have the vocabulary words and their meaning, let's see how they tie into the argument "Simutronics has a problem with consistency."

When there are numerous instances where you have one GM interpret rules and policy one way, then another GM interpret it another way, and both act according to the way "THEY" each interpret the rules and policy--then there is a problem with consistency.

Summir losing her shield to normal game mechanics and having it stolen by someone who said they'd help her find it and return it to her REALLY did happen. She ACTUALLY sought help from a GM and they told her that since she lost the shield initially to normal game mechanics that they could not intervene in the retrieval of the shield, that it would be against policy. All of those events DID TAKE PLACE--Those events are NOT BELIEVED TO HAVE TAKEN PLACE--THEY DID TAKE PLACE--Understood? Understood. Good....Moving along....

SUMMERLYN'S FRIEND Lord SoandSo said he was leaving Gemstone, and wanted Summerlyn to have his shield. Summerlyn did not want his shield, so he decided to drop his shield WILLINGLY at her feet and walk off. Summerlyn then picked up the shield and stored it in her locker for safe keeping. A little while later, Lord SoandSo obviously requests assistance from a GM and says that he wants his shield back. This GM looks through Summerlyn's locker, THEN poofs her up into the Lounge and ORDERS Summerlyn to return the shield--not asked her to return it, but ORDERED her to--clearly contradicting the "rules and policy" that the GM in Summir's instance said about GM intervention in retrieving lost items. THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED--WE DO NOT "BELIEVE" IT TO HAVE HAPPENED, IT DID HAPPEN.

THE EVENTS MENTIONED ABOVE ARE REAL--THE NAMES MAY HAVE BEEN ALTERED, BUT THE SITUATIONS ***DID*** occur. And you know what else, Ellarze? Those are not the only two instances in which situations like those mentioned above occured. I lost an 8x broadsword in a CRASH that I *know for a fact* I put in ***MY*** harness, but was told that since there was no "report of a problem with the system at the time" (and the damn game crashed--imagine that?) that I couldn't be helped. That really did happen, not just a figment of my imagination. There are people who I know of who lost items and had them returned after a day or so. There are GMs who will not allow certain items/phrases/materials in an alteration, and others who will make you an alter with those SAME things. THIS, Ellarze, is a fact, because these are things that DO happen, not things that WE BELIEVE happen. You know what else those things are, other than factual? They are INCONSISTENT. So, if we have actual events where inconsistency has occured within Simutronics on numerous occasions--then what does that mean? It is a FACT that Simutronics is INCONSISTENT--NOT AN OPINION.

[This message has been edited by Weedmage Princess (edited 04-16-2002).] reg

04:18 PMYo Weedy!

Okay - don't go nuts over this darlin. But first of all - it isn't "fact" that these things actually happened. It is only "fact" that SummEr told us that they happened. Whether or not they happened is unknown to the rest of us, because we have no proof of it. We have only her word.

I *DO* believe that these things happened, but my belief in Summer's words don't make it fact.

I also believe that what happened with SummIr's situation really did happen. But this belief also doesn't make it fact. It only means I believe SummIr's accounting of the situation.

This is the funny thing about the internet. Because we can all be virtually unknown, we can pretty much say whatever we want - be it fact or fiction, and if we present it just right, we'll be believed.

R
reg

04:49 PMOk, Princess…I am not going to belabor the definition of fact and opinion, because Desharei has worded it far more eloquently than I would have, not to mention I am already late for class and my first grade teacher gets REAL upset when I’m tardy.

reg

05:47 PMBlah Blah Desh raining on my parade! <kick> Heh.

*Technically* speaking, that is correct--we can't say for certain that those things in Summerlyn's and Summir's because we weren't there--however...!!!

I don't see why either one of them would go out of their way to post on these matters over and over again if it was just a lie--and I know (for a fact) from my own personal experiences (like with my 8x broadsword, and a friend of mine who one time did get some armor or something replaced that he lost) that those things did happen--I was there.

I am assuming that Summir and Summer are not lying, Summir did present logs and Tsin did admit to taking the shield--it's true you can not believe EVERYTHING you hear but I think [most of us] are capable of determining what is just hearsay, and what has validity to it.

reg

05:48 PMFACT: No one knows what Summer's friend said to convince the GMs that she has to give the item back. For all we know, he said that he dropped it by mistake, saw Summer pick it up, wants it back and she won't give it up since he never GAVE it to her. I believe Summer, but I don't believe the moron that dropped the item. AND.. all this was done in the game. No IMs, emails, or board postings were made to result in this exchange.

FACT: The situations that occurred to Summir and Edge were all done in the game. She lost it due to fear and a creature taking it. He "offered" to help, found it and kept it for all his in character reasons, as devious and malicious those intentions were. They were the character reasons. At that point they could have done whatever means necessary.. in game.. to retrieve it or act on vengence, including killing him and demanding it back. If he still refused, then they could have asked the GMs for help. Instead, the GMs were summoned after heated IMs and emails were exchanged. It is now an OOC issue, so at that point it's no longer a situation where a GM can intervene. It's a personal problem that Summir, Edge and Zurrian need to deal with on their own.

Summer situation = all in the game, all in character, no OOC means of communication used.

Summir sitation = quite a mix of OOC and in game communications, borderline PvP.

Am I condoning what Zurrian did? No, that was a callous and evil thing to do. Was it all in character? Yep. Even if the guy has done this repeatedly, it's apparently what the character does, as morally wrong as it may be.

Nothing we say at this point is going to help the situation, only aggravate it. So I'll let it go for now. I wish you all luck.

------------------
Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things. reg

07:52 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Weedmage Princess:

Summir losing her shield to normal game mechanics and having it stolen by someone who said they'd help her find it and return it to her REALLY did happen. She ACTUALLY sought help from a GM and they told her that since she lost the shield initially to normal game mechanics that they could not intervene in the retrieval of the shield, that it would be against policy. All of those events DID TAKE PLACE--Those events are NOT BELIEVED TO HAVE TAKEN PLACE--THEY DID TAKE PLACE--Understood? Understood. Good....Moving along....
SUMMERLYN'S FRIEND Lord SoandSo said he was leaving Gemstone, and wanted Summerlyn to have his shield. Summerlyn did not want his shield, so he decided to drop his shield WILLINGLY at her feet and walk off. Summerlyn then picked up the shield and stored it in her locker for safe keeping. A little while later, Lord SoandSo obviously requests assistance from a GM and says that he wants his shield back. This GM looks through Summerlyn's locker, THEN poofs her up into the Lounge and ORDERS Summerlyn to return the shield--not asked her to return it, but ORDERED her to--clearly contradicting the "rules and policy" that the GM in Summir's instance said about GM intervention in retrieving lost items. THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED--WE DO NOT "BELIEVE" IT TO HAVE HAPPENED, IT DID HAPPEN.

The difference in the two situations seems to escape most of you. In the instance where Summir lost her shield it was due to a game mechanic initiated by a game creature.
In the case of Summerlyn's friend, it was not a game mechanic that initiated the loss of his weapon, it was a human being deciding to drop the weapon. The two situations are not identical.
reg

09:23 PMIf it makes a difference, I was locked out months and months and months ago because I picked up another players shield off the ground.

I don't remember his name, but I remember the shield, a black tower shield. He reported, had a GM talk to me, and then basically continue with a lockout, giving the shield back to the player.

One GM does it this way, One GM does it that way. Do policies and procedures get trained whatsoever over there a Simu? reg

10:28 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Dustin Brookthorn:
If it makes a difference, I was locked out months and months and months ago because I picked up another players shield off the ground.
I don't remember his name, but I remember the shield, a black tower shield. He reported, had a GM talk to me, and then basically continue with a lockout, giving the shield back to the player.
One GM does it this way, One GM does it that way. Do policies and procedures get trained whatsoever over there a Simu?

That's the MAIN POINT I was trying to make, Dustin, but you see, you have people twisting around words/stories and coming up with cop outs for whatever reason and not looking at the fact (and I'm sorry if people want to play the "well I didn't see it so how do we know it really happened" game but how many of you actually believe it was made up anyway?) which is GMs do things THEIR way and do not follow one set guideline. It's not only with lost weapons, either--look at the way things are with alterations--I read on a guide somewhere (I believe it may have been official, I just want to check it again to be sure) that "if you request an alteration and a GM doesn't agree to do it because they believe it violates policy, please do not say "Well GM SoandSo did this for Lord/Lady Whoever." I mean HELLO if something ISNT ALLOWED, then it shouldn't be allowed, period--what's the deal with policy anyway? Here's the policy, follow it if you want to.

And yes, Passing Through, you're right in the respect that the person willingly dropped the shield after he tried to make Summerlyn take the shield and her refusing it, as opposed to having a spell by a monster cause her to drop it. Even LESS reason for a GM to intervene.

Anyway, I'm dropping this too....I'm not going to play the Cop-Out game. reg

11:14 AMAnd you just made the point I was attempting to make, Princess. You just blindly assumed that what Dustin posted was the whole story. He just happened to find a shield on the ground and *whamo* locked out for months. Another poor soul, unfairly persecuted by the evil corporation, through no fault of their own.

Sadly, your anger with Simutronics blinds you to the fact that there might just be more to this story, which was held back because it does not put the poster in the best of light. But that can’t be the case… Simutronics has wronged to him just like he said. He posted it, so it must be the truth. I guess this is just one more of those “Facts” you keep referring to in your posts.

I also know what your retort will be, “Why would he lie”? I have no idea why some people lie. Why did GSLawyer lie in his posts here? Why did Scintillion lie about his participation in the anti-gemstone website? Why does any person (GM or Player) lie about their actions in this game? Please note: I’m not saying that Dustin has lied in this case, just that it does not appear as if we are not getting the whole story.

And finally, I can see why you would not want to play the “Cop-Out game”, you’re far too busy playing the “Blind following the stupid” one.
reg

11:44 AMThe point is that there are four sides to any of these stories... the victim's side, the attacker's side, the GM's side, and the truth. So far we only have heard ONE side of these stories, so all this back and forth is a waste of time.

People who don't think that Simutronics is some horrible, evil entity can't sway the minds of those who think they are, and vice versa. I just wish everyone would see each other's points and not resort to calling each other "blind" or "close minded" just because we don't agree with your stand on the situation. Let's all agree to disagree and find something else to bicker about.

------------------
Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things. reg

11:47 AM Both of you have valid arguments, but are edging further apart with each post - digging in your heels. At this point you should probably just agree to disagree.

In a lot of years playing Gemstone, and being at times rather vocal in my opposition to decisions made there (including quitting playing more than once), I have seen a lot of inconsistency by GM's. I believe it to be unavoidable. Simutronics can't make hard and fast rules when players keep finding new ways to cheat and avoid the old ones. So the GM's are likely told to use their best judgement within some nebulous set of general guidelines. This leads to inconsistency. For an example, I point you to the history of the U.S. justice system and the decisions of judges and juries. Inconsistency, and whenever hard and fast rules are designed that try to eliminate that inconsistency (three strikes and you're out, for example) problems develop. Same thing here in Gemstone.

Could Simutronics do better? Probably. Will they? Unlikely.

Will Simutronics admit culpability in any of this or for anything else? Not a chance. Corporations never admit guilt. Ever. Look at Arthur Anderson. Even when caught red-handed they have to be forced into admitting guilt. Don't expect anything different from Simutronics. It is also a corporation.

All that being said, Ellarze makes a valid point about us not seeing all of the story in most cases posted on these boards. People do not knowingly paint themselves in a bad light, even honest people. When reading complaints or arguments here about things that happened in the game, one should always try to maintain at least some skepticism. I don't entirely disbelieve what people post here; but I'm also not about to come to conclusions based on subjective and anecdotal evidence by parties with a stake in the argument.

[This message has been edited by OldTimeGS (edited 04-17-2002).]

[This message has been edited by OldTimeGS (edited 04-17-2002).] reg

12:01 PMOldTimeGS and CrystalTears, you are both correct, and I would like to openly apologize to Princess for my “Blind following the stupid” comment (I just got sick of hearing the “Cop-Out” comment and struck back, not one of my finer moments<grin> ) reg

01:25 PMI'm trying to figure out if Princess is the "Blind" one, who is the "Stupid" one! <wink>

I think we all realize that there are people that don't tell the whole story, or that try to present their side in the best possible light. But, I also think there are people that do stick to the facts and are honest in relating their experiences. I know that if I ever had to resort to lying, or misrepresenting the facts it would be time to permanently yank the power source!

In my incident, I have nothing to gain from lying about what happened. There were several witnesses that saw what took place in the Tower and then saw my friend follow me, drop his weapon, and leave for the night. I didn't get into any type of trouble regarding this incident. The only reason I mentioned it was because it was exactly opposite to what was stated in the letter to Summir from Feedback.

Summer (and I have Logs, darn it!) reg

03:04 PMOn a final note....

I just want to clarify something--I had never said "Simutronics is an evil, horrible, company." Quite to the contrary, if you look over my posts (and not just the ones in this topic), I've said that I "DIDNT believe that they were some God awful company that should just go out of business because they are so terrible." But I am quite vehement about my stance on their lack of consistency, why? Not only because of stories I've heard, but things I've personally witnessed throughout the years in this game, and you know what? There are even GM's who have said that "not all follow the same set of rules." Again, I'm just pointing out a major problem I have with them, but that doesn't mean I hate the company--Besides, I still pay and play, no?

I know, I know, you weren't there, so you don't know--and that's fine. But I was, so I do know--for a fact.

Either way, before you so "blindly" brand me as a "Simutronics hater"...make sure you are correct in your assumption, and make sure that you know that it's true, FOR A FACT (which by the way, it isn't, because I've stated the opposite.)

[This message has been edited by Weedmage Princess (edited 04-17-2002).] reg

03:56 PMInteresting story here...

Many years ago.. Like five years ago or so.. at a grand auction, one of my younger chars was walkin' around and saw someone put a sword into a sheath on the ground. The sword was a great auction sword.. the guy left afterwards.. So I picked it up and left.
Now.. Gm's did a retrieval from that character and locked only the character out for a balance of two years. Fun stuff isn't it? They didn't even talk to me about it.

Andiago
Who was undiago'd at the time. reg

06:25 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Ellarze:
And you just made the point I was attempting to make, Princess. You just blindly assumed that what Dustin posted was the whole story. He just happened to find a shield on the ground and *whamo* locked out for months. Another poor soul, unfairly persecuted by the evil corporation, through no fault of their own.
Sadly, your anger with Simutronics blinds you to the fact that there might just be more to this story, which was held back because it does not put the poster in the best of light. But that can’t be the case… Simutronics has wronged to him just like he said. He posted it, so it must be the truth. I guess this is just one more of those “Facts” you keep referring to in your posts.
I also know what your retort will be, “Why would he lie”? I have no idea why some people lie. Why did GSLawyer lie in his posts here? Why did Scintillion lie about his participation in the anti-gemstone website? Why does any person (GM or Player) lie about their actions in this game? Please note: I’m not saying that Dustin has lied in this case, just that it does not appear as if we are not getting the whole story.
And finally, I can see why you would not want to play the “Cop-Out game”, you’re far too busy playing the “Blind following the stupid” one.

That's not the whole story, I honestly don't remember the whole story. From what I do remember, a player either dropped a shield onto the ground or it fell for one reason or another. I don't remember which. But I picked it up and took off. I tried to auction it off for some quick cash and in comes GM, takes the shield, locks me out, returns the shield and that's the main plot to the story.

Don't get me wrong, I deserved it. BUT I also think Zurrainn/Tsin/Xak whatever you want to call him should be treated in the same manner.

A policy or set of guidelines from simutronics that the GM's actually follow would be nice too. Maybe a service level agreement on how they handle situations. Is that too much to ask from a 10+ year old company? reg

12:33 AMtsin/zurrain is not xak

~tijay reg

01:00 PMI've been on this from both ends...all I can say is this...anyone who thinks that Gemstone GMs conspire all day to screw people over seriously needs something better to do with their time.

I've tried to buy stuff back I lost and failed even when I offered over the market price (lost a nicely altered shield) and I've had my chance at great fortune killed by a potentially overzealous GM.

Don't take it personal...it generally isn't. People are more important than items or coin....and yer own fun in this place is more important than other people. It is a game. reg

01:35 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Tijay:
tsin/zurrain is not xak
~tijay

Revie and Tijay are not longer the old Revie and Tijay I knew either, would they be Xak? reg

09:23 PMyour totally wrong about that too rymn you can IM me at the same screen name ive always had i just seperated the accts over the summer you really shouldnt post about what you dont know

~sean players of tijay/revie and a few others reg

10:05 PMHeh... Tijay and Revie are the same Tijay and Revie ... Known that dirty bugger for years.. Heh

Andiago
The uncola reg

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